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Where is MAURA MURRAY

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Beagle

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#12885
Thursday Jan 22
 

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I'm not, nor ever was, a scientist. Not even a Scientologist. I am not a right-to-life advocate in the sense that I assume you mean that term. I'm not Roman Catholic. Or even very religious.

I believe, but without too much fire or fanfare, that life begins at conception, but I'm open to alternate ideas on the subject. That belief absolutely does not necessarily translate into some kind, or any kind, of legislation.

In short, I believe that life begins at conception, but I'm basically pro-choice. The Roe v. Wade decision may have its flaws (no, I'm not attorney), but to this lay person, it seems like a reasonable decision.

A group of people (a nation-state, for example) can decide to protect anyone or group it wants, fair or unfair. For instance, a nation-state can compose and enforce a law against the killing of people between 30 and 40 years old, and leave the rest to fend for themselves. The nation-state can do what it wants, right or wrong.

I take no - repeat, NO - position on the morality of abortion, ESCR, ASCR, reproductive medicine, and so on. All that stuff, as moral argument, is irrelevant to me here.

What I do take a position on - and a very strong position - is the rule of law in general. I think the rule of law is, at least in principle, the highest or nearly the highest achievement of our civilization.

I do not KNOW that Bish or Murray or anyone else disappeared because someone wanted their body parts. But the case MUST be made that it is very, very realistically possible.

To me, there are two main issues here. One: The general public should be much, much more informed on the role of the acquisition and trade in human body parts in current medical research and practice. The public needs to understand that there are people cruising college campuses offering thousands of dollars - in some cases, one hundred thousand dollars - to select women for a single successful harvest of their eggs. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's an opportunity for some real ethical dilemmas.

I'm not trying to "enforce" one opinion or another on anyone. I just want people to think about what goes on behind the scenes. Be informed, and choose accordingly. But be informed, not ignorant.

Two: I do not believe that well funded medical and scientific (research) companies - yes, of which there are many in Massachusetts - are somehow granted an immunity against suspicion.

It is ignorant and wrong to assume that the only reason a young woman (or girl) like Bish or Murray or others must have disappeared SOLELY due the the criminal action of a conventional serial killer/rapist. That simply is not true, nor has it been true for at least a decade. It has been going on in foreign countries for at least the last ten to twenty years. There is no reason to think it is not going on here, too.

If a full array of possible reasons for the otherwise unexplained disappearances of at least a few, if not many, young women is not taken into account, then I feel that there exists a very unnecessary danger to more young women. And they deserve the protection that is afforded by an open mind, by an open acknowledgement that the risk to young women is vastly increased when thousands or millions of dollars are offered for their body parts.

Obviously, all this freaks some people out - and I understand that - but it has to be met head on for what it really is. Anything less is irresponsible in today's world.
Beagle

United States

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#12886
Thursday Jan 22
 

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Snowy White wrote:
<quoted text>
Good Morbid Morning, Beagle ~
Just thinkin'...
Are you philosophically/religiously/in tellectually/ethically or otherwise firmly opposed to biomedical research...which, of course, is well represented in MA.
Are you a right to life advocate?
Are you willing/able to take this information about Advanced Cell Technology elsewhere for consideration and action if you believe it to be true?
Given Maura has not been found, your theories are no more or less valid than others.
You may be a brilliant and courageous citizen investigator...or just a tortured soul with a vivid imagination. I don't know.
A vivid imagination is not required to advance these scenarios. It's all in plain old black and white print in mainstream magazines. And has been for years. In fact, this stuff has become so "normal" these days, that, as revealed in a recent MSNBC story, elementary genetic engineering is now a home hobby for some.

In Vitro Fertilization (IVF), for exampe, was known to be very feasible at least by 1940. The vast majority, nearly all, of the general public in the 1940's and 1950's had no idea AT ALL that a sexual revolution was pencilled by scientists on the calendar for the 1960's. But it was. And it happened. I take no position on it at all. But I think history is worth recording, and I think current events, especially scientific/technological ones, are worth keeping an eye on. They represent the future. We, and succeeding generations, should have the best future we are worthy of. But we won't be worthy of much if we constantly stick our heads in the sand. And ignorance short changes those who follow us. Hostility to open expression and inquiry kills a free society.
FireCat

United States

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#12887
Thursday Jan 22
 
Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's a challenge to Lady Gray, Firecat, Sophie Bean, Elsewherebriefly, and Shack. Please answer the above question. Thank you.
Why is this addressed to me specifically? I have no idea.
Beagle

United States

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#12888
Thursday Jan 22
 

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Snowy White wrote:
<quoted text>Are you willing/able to take this information about Advanced Cell Technology elsewhere for consideration and action if you believe it to be true?
I use ACT as an example. I believe ACT and companies like ACT should not be given a free pass. They, and their suppliers, may be clean as a whistle, but they should be scrutinized just as thoroughly as the local sex offender, maybe more.

Would I "take this information about Advanced Cell Technology elsewhere for consideration and action if you believe it to be true?"

Like where? The hostility on this thread is typical of the hostility everywhere. What would you suggest?

Would I "
Beagle

United States

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#12889
Thursday Jan 22
 

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FireCat wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is this addressed to me specifically? I have no idea.
You don't need "an idea" in order to answer the question.

You said that you hesitate to cast a wider net, so I thought a simple question like this would be helpful.

If you don't want to answer, could you at least please say why? Thank you.
Beagle

United States

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#12890
Thursday Jan 22
 
QUESTION:

If one person was

(1) known to have frequented and been very familiar with and had access to the area where Bish's body was found at the time of her disappearance,

(2) was known to be in Jackson, NH at the time Chaput was killed, and

(3) resembles the "person of interest" in the sketch on the Bish website,

would this person be worth a closer look?

It's a simple question. I would think anyone truly interested in the missing and/or abducted would not find it too difficult to just agree or disagree. A somewhat fuller explanation of one's agreement or disagreement would be really helpful.
It doesn't require a lot of thinking or a lot of time. It's here. Why not answer it?

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12891
Thursday Jan 22
 
to Beagle at 12885 ~

Thank you for your reply.

"The public needs to understand that there are people cruising college campuses offering thousands of dollars - in some cases, one hundred thousand dollars - to select women for a single successful harvest of their eggs. Call me old fashioned, but I think that's an opportunity for some real ethical dilemmas."
********
Agree
********

"Be informed, and choose accordingly. But be informed, not ignorant."
********
Agree
********

"I do not believe that well funded medical and scientific (research) companies - yes, of which there are many in Massachusetts - are somehow granted an immunity against suspicion."
********
Although I agree they should not be granted immunity from suspicion, should they be falsely accused?
********

"It is ignorant and wrong to assume that the only reason a young woman (or girl) like Bish or Murray or others must have disappeared SOLELY due the the criminal action of a conventional serial killer/rapist. That simply is not true, nor has it been true for at least a decade. It has been going on in foreign countries for at least the last ten to twenty years. There is no reason to think it is not going on here, too.
********
Agree...options should not be limited to conventional reasoning/thinking. However, raising awareness is healthy....actively facilitating fear based on ASSUMPTION is less productive.
********

"...I feel that there exists a very unnecessary danger to more young women. And they deserve the protection that is afforded by an open mind, by an open acknowledgement [sic] that the risk to young women is vastly increased when thousands or millions of dollars are offered for their body parts."
********
I, too, agree a probable risk exists, but while the connections you draw Bish-to-Murray may seem logical, they may not be plausible with any certainty. Which of us has the ability to prove or disprove what has been theorized?

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12892
Thursday Jan 22
 
Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>
A vivid imagination is not required to advance these scenarios. It's all in plain old black and white print in mainstream magazines. And has been for years. In fact, this stuff has become so "normal" these days, that, as revealed in a recent MSNBC story, elementary genetic engineering is now a home hobby for some.
In Vitro Fertilization (IVF), for exampe, was known to be very feasible at least by 1940. The vast majority, nearly all, of the general public in the 1940's and 1950's had no idea AT ALL that a sexual revolution was pencilled by scientists on the calendar for the 1960's. But it was. And it happened. I take no position on it at all. But I think history is worth recording, and I think current events, especially scientific/technological ones, are worth keeping an eye on. They represent the future. We, and succeeding generations, should have the best future we are worthy of. But we won't be worthy of much if we constantly stick our heads in the sand. And ignorance short changes those who follow us. Hostility to open expression and inquiry kills a free society.
Yes, the trends have become evident...even to those who would prefer to remain in denial, and to those who actively resist.
Hopefully, scientific advancements will propel us to an improved state of being...rather than for purposes of "evil", as defined by one's point of view.
Wowzer

Franconia, NH

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#12893
Thursday Jan 22
 

Judged:

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Beagle wrote:
QUESTION:
If one person was
(1) known to have frequented and been very familiar with and had access to the area where Bish's body was found at the time of her disappearance,
(2) was known to be in Jackson, NH at the time Chaput was killed, and
(3) resembles the "person of interest" in the sketch on the Bish website,
would this person be worth a closer look?
It's a simple question. I would think anyone truly interested in the missing and/or abducted would not find it too difficult to just agree or disagree. A somewhat fuller explanation of one's agreement or disagreement would be really helpful.
It doesn't require a lot of thinking or a lot of time. It's here. Why not answer it?
Just my two cents which isn't worth much around here but since no one is answering the question I'll say that YES it is certainly worth a closer look.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12894
Thursday Jan 22
 

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"I use ACT as an example. I believe ACT and companies like ACT should not be given a free pass. They, and their suppliers, may be clean as a whistle, but they should be scrutinized just as thoroughly as the local sex offender, maybe more."

********
To your knowledge, are any such regulations in place to achieve conformity to a code of ethics and standards...much less for scrutiny to oversee compliance? Or do these companies operate without guidelines...a free-for-all?

Also, are you suggesting that other companies in MA similarly invested harvesting human embryos, and have performed such harvesting in the manner you describe the relationship of Bish to Advanced Cell/Worcester?
If so, and Advanced Cell is only an example, can you and will you name others? We should know.
********

Would I "take this information about Advanced Cell Technology elsewhere for consideration and action if you believe it to be true?"
Like where? The hostility on this thread is typical of the hostility everywhere. What would you suggest?
Would I "

********
Law enforcement? The FBI?

Are you grouping unscrupulous/criminal individuals with the scientific community/institutions/corpora tions and calling them one?

Or can you identify the immoral, reprehensible, criminal actions you describe as specifically attributable to individuals and/or companies.

If your knowledge conforms to the latter, there would seem to be a moral obligation to report such findings.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12895
Thursday Jan 22
 
Wowzer wrote:
<quoted text>
Just my two cents which isn't worth much around here but since no one is answering the question I'll say that YES it is certainly worth a closer look.
As ever, a clear and reasonable answer, Wowzer, while I bury myself in questions.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12896
Thursday Jan 22
 
To simplify, Beagle...would you let me/us know if you suspect other companies in MA.
A few? Some? All?
Just curious.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12897
Thursday Jan 22
 
While knowing this atrocity may exist, I guess I am still skeptical about the specific connection to these young women.
Beagle

Holyoke, MA

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#12898
Thursday Jan 22
 
Snowy White wrote:
<quoted text>
Good Morbid Morning, Beagle ~
Just thinkin'...
Are you philosophically/religiously/in tellectually/ethically or otherwise firmly opposed to biomedical research...which, of course, is well represented in MA.
No, I'm definitely not opposed to biomedical research in general. That does not mean that I would not oppose specific instances or kinds of biomedical research. I really like that I'm not going to get polio. I really like that there may be a cure for Parkinson's Disease someday. I really like that the U.S. Government may have available safe antidotes for anthrax poisoning or a vaccine ready in case of a smallpox bioterror event. But the route to these goals cannot be morally indefensible.

To most people, biomedical research is something wholly confined to a laboratory. But that's not true. Biomedical research often depends on the steady acquisition and supply of human tissue. From real human bodies. And that's where the problem is.

It's not like the CEO of ACT is out kidnapping young women for their eggs. But he may have a use for those eggs, regardless of how they were acquired. ACT may have a rigorous vetting of its sources of human tissue or it may have very little vetting of it.

Someone on the bottom end of the supply chain may get a crackpot idea to abduct a woman and put her tissue in a freezer or cooler and, in effect, peddle it door to door within the biomedical research community. It's already been done thousands of times in this country with tissue illegally taken from the deceased.

Organ procurement programs may not pass a thorough and vigorous audit, either. I do know that organ procurement programs or companies have become far more aggressive in their hunt for tissue, usually from the brain dead, than they were just five or ten years ago. Somewhere along the line someone, maybe in a weak moment, is going to snatch a kidney or a cornea or a femur and pocket some much needed cash. It's just human nature, it's inevitable.

My guess is that there is, somewhere, unofficially, a kind of black market bounty for a single large amount of high value human eggs from one donor. They are probably far more monetarily valuable than any other body part of either sex.

Add to the human egg scenario the possible use of performance enhancing drugs or the association of the victims, knowingly or unknowingly, with those who use and/or sell these kinds of drugs, and you've got what is really a very similar world of medical or phony medical reasons for some people, especially highly intelligent athletes, to disappear. There is a big overlap in between the world of body enhancing drugs (alternative enhancement drugs) and the use of human eggs. The HGH provided by the pituitary gland is one example of this overlap. Just ask Lyle Azado.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

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Danvers, MA

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#12899
Thursday Jan 22
 
Bring your concerns to the media?
Is there are growing presence with the company of others who believe similarly?
Might they be prepared to join you?
Beagle

Holyoke, MA

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#12900
Thursday Jan 22
 
Wowzer wrote:
<quoted text>
Just my two cents which isn't worth much around here but since no one is answering the question I'll say that YES it is certainly worth a closer look.
Thank you. Seems straight forward enough. Just plain common sense for LE to look a little closer. Thanks again for your answer. It's definitely worth more than two cents.
Beagle

Holyoke, MA

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#12901
Thursday Jan 22
 
[QUOTE who="Snowy WhiteLaw enforcement? The FBI?
Are you grouping unscrupulous/criminal individuals with the scientific community/institutions/corpora tions and calling them one?
Or can you identify the immoral, reprehensible, criminal actions you describe as specifically attributable to individuals and/or companies.
If your knowledge conforms to the latter, there would seem to be a moral obligation to report such findings.
[/QUOTE]

One of the reasons I'm committed to the realistic POSSIBILITY of this theory is that local LE has been really severe in its reaction. As has someone at the top of the corporate ladder. If they have responded as forcefully as they have, which is truly scary, then I think LE can be ruled out as a place of trust. I've been given to understand by LE that I would pay a very, very high price if I were to pursue this further.

But even honest LE does not want to hear anything like this because it cannot be summarized in a 20 second sound bite. And it's impossible for me to tell honest LE from dishonest LE.

Also, I'm not pretending to have a smoking gun here. That's not my job. I just want to point out that there are reasonable indications that Bish, Chaput, Murray, and maybe others have been attacked/abducted or whatever for reasons that may have so far escaped the minds of LE. Frankly, some in LE may not know a molecule from a cement block, so selling a theory like this would be pretty difficult.

It also doesn't help that the person near the top of the corporate ladder (not at ACT) has enormous influence within MSP. He travels with body guards. He has hired a private detective to, in effect, harrass me. This is not paranoia. This is straight from a very reliable, conservative lawyer and two very reliable police officers.

If I'm so off base, then why all the unwanted attention from LE and big business? Believe me, it far, far transcends the obvious in this thread.

Joined: Oct 16, 2008

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Modesto, CA

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#12902
Thursday Jan 22
 
Beagle wrote:
I'm not Roman Catholic. Or even very religious.
Their is no Hindu, there is no Muslem
Beagle

Holyoke, MA

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#12903
Thursday Jan 22
 
Snowy White wrote:
While knowing this atrocity may exist, I guess I am still skeptical about the specific connection to these young women.
It's good to be skeptical. A theory like mine should be viewed very skeptically. But it should be viewed with an open and curious mind.

If, as someone recently said to me, I told you that I had monkeys flying out of my ass, you'd probably, with good reason, not believe me. But if I showed you X-rays or a video tape or something like that, then maybe you'd admit the possibility.

That's kind of the way it is here. I don't have a capital murder case all tied up in a neat box. It's a theory, that's all.

And any time someone wants to, they're welcome to explore the same territory. I won't call it diversionary.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#12904
Thursday Jan 22
 
Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>
It's good to be skeptical. A theory like mine should be viewed very skeptically. But it should be viewed with an open and curious mind.
If, as someone recently said to me, I told you that I had monkeys flying out of my ass, you'd probably, with good reason, not believe me. But if I showed you X-rays or a video tape or something like that, then maybe you'd admit the possibility.
That's kind of the way it is here. I don't have a capital murder case all tied up in a neat box. It's a theory, that's all.
And any time someone wants to, they're welcome to explore the same territory. I won't call it diversionary.
Agree.
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