Where is MAURA MURRAY

Eurobserver wrote:

Benjamin Franklin, Regarding your recent post:
As far as I know (and I´ve been reading a lot about this heartbreaking case) Maura never looked up directions for Bennington, VT, but did indeed make a search for directions to Burlington, VT, and to the nearby Stowe area.

Thank you for pointing that out. You think its bad when you get older at 65, or even 95. But I'm now over 302 years old and I'll just have to admit to myself that my mind is not what is used to be.

Eurobserver wrote:

With all due respect

You've had my respect from the first post of yours I've read.:)

Eurobserver wrote:

I believe that you must be confusing Bennington in SW Vermont with Burlington/Stowe in the NW part of Vermont.
Maura also made searches for directions for the Berkshire Ranges of NW MA and for the Bartlett area of northern New Hampshire, which she knew very well indeed.

Only the words. To get to Burlington/Stowe one would not take Interstate 93, one would take Interstate 89. These paths diverge at Concord.

Eurobserver wrote:

I have never ever come across any information stating that Maura knew the area where her car was found (Haverhill, NH) at all well.
Indeed, she may not even have been in that part of NH before, for all that we know. Please, kindly indicate where you may have found Maura´s knowledge of the Haverhill/Woodsville, NH, area to be a fact. That would be a highly important piece of information, if you could verify this as fact.

[QUOTE who="GARY E. LINDSLEY, Staff Writer Thursday May 6, 2004 Caledonian Record]
She then turned right onto Route 112 and apparently headed to Lincoln, which she was familiar with because of family excursions to the area.[/QUOTE]
As always, I am your faithful and humble servant, etc. &

Eurobserver wrote:

elsewherebriefly,
Regarding the BOLO for a female of 5'2" ir 5'3".
I have alwats wondered on what information those figures was based on.
As far as we know they must have been deduced from the witness statements by the SBD (Mr A), but as far as I can recall the SBD never actually saw Maura (or the supposed Maura) actually standing up at the car, but sitting behind the wheel of the Saturn.
If so, how was the estimated height of the female arrived at?

That's an excellent question, and one that seems representative of the kind of inconsistencies that are troubling in this case. There is no public account to my knowledge of how Maura's height was determined, and the BOLO went out before LE would have checked with anyone as far as we know.

Weeper said that this is a homicide investigation.
That's the first time that I've seen that said so bluntly by a member of the PI team. With what I know of Weeper, it is very unlikely - I'd say impossible - that he'd say that unless he was quite certain of his facts.

The damage to the Saturn was not caused as it was stated in the police reports, and that dubious reporting has not been pursued by NH LE to the public's knowledge.
Why would the police report be clearly in error but not corrected?

The fact that there are so many inconsistencies which have not been followed up by LE - to public knowledge - including inconsistencies and assumptions about Maura that LE HAS made in public, in print - these seem significant and central to the case.

CW's account which became known as hearsay, an account which, though he is a witness by his own admission, he kept from the police until it was reported that it had been overheard - seems significant and possibly central. Am I saying that I believe that CW knows a great deal more than he has said? Yes.
I can chalk SBD's inaccuracies and inconsistencies up to poor memory, bad lighting, and a number of other apparently innocent reasons.
The WB observers were likely far enough away to just not be accurate - again, nothing suspicious there. I can understand some displeasure at their privacy being intruded upon.
I can't find any innocent explanation for the blood in the closet of the A-frame.
I can't find any innocent explanation for some LE's extreme eagerness - before any facts were apparent - to portray Maura as drunk, runaway, suicidal.
Obviously, I'm interested in the fact that LE conducted a search in which they dug on the property of a local resident - they wouldn't do that for no reason. They might have been operating on bad information, but I can't imagine that that search warrant was very easy to obtain.

I don't believe that Maura's life at UMAss was a "mystery" as some seem to feel. Everything I have seen about her life there points for me at a fairly private person. I can say from my personal experience that being a private person doesn't mean that you necessarily have something to hide - you can simply be less of an extrovert. Being introverted to a degree is not in itself suspicious.

What I'm left with, from my own conclusions, and from what Weeper and many others have contributed, is that Maura was a victim of foul play which took place fairly close to where her car was placed. So yes, I am saying that I think that person or persons from - OR IN / PASSING THROUGH - the local area are involved, and LE was and is at least negligent.

hi all, just to state the obvious.did H.P.D have Mauras license from her backpack or car.take care philip

GARY E. LINDSLEY, Staff Writer Thursday May 6, 2004 Caledonian Record, wrote: She then turned right onto Route 112 and apparently headed to Lincoln, which she was familiar with because of family excursions to the area.

This? Is what is known as a reporter's conjecture. Unless Mr. Lindsley was in the car with Maura, which of course he wasn't, he does not know this as fact. There is no certain way to ascertain Maura's exact route that evening. This is among the most likely, but without an eyewitness or video, we don't know for sure.

whiston wrote:

hi all, just to state the obvious.did H.P.D have Mauras license from her backpack or car.take care philip

No; they got the info from the DMV system.

Hello Ben Franklin,

Thanks for your recent post.

Just one thing regarding your quote from the Caledonian Record:

It is correct, as far as I know, that Maura knew the Lincoln/North Woodstock area of NH very well from many family holidays in that region.
She was also very familiar with the area north, north-east and east of Lincoln, very much including the Bartlett/Conway area across the Kancamagus Pass as seen from Lincoln.

However, to my knowledge Maura was not at all familiar with the Haverhill/Woodsville region of NH, where her car ended up.
The Lincoln area is approx. another 15-20 miles east of where her car was found in Swiftwater.

I should add some new thoughts I forgot earlier today before my morning commute.

1. I thought that there may be some signifigance to Maura checked her voice mail for messages at 4:37 PM, after or as she was leaving. She must have been expecting a call. One call she might expect was a return call from her classmate that had an identical schedule, that she called and left a message to at 1:13 PM (I've read elsewhere that it was to have that person let her know about class assignments, take notes - while the Hanson Express says to give the student her scrubs.)

But another possibility could be the unknown accomplice, if he/she exists.

2. I saw from the special report in the Hanson Express that her gas tank was nearly full.

This places the fill up in a closer area. If she filled up the car, well that blows my theory that the crime happened at Concord.

But someone else could have filled up the car too, but it is a risky move.

3. I looked at Yahoo Maps to see how long the drive from Amhurst to Concord and from Concord to where the car was found.

Then I realized that the path diversion is not at Concord, but White River Juntion.

Anyway I mapped it out here:

http://maps.google.com/maps...

It would take 2 hours 47 minutes to get there, and from 4:37 to 7:00 PM - 2:30 when the accident happened, that leaves little time for diversion from her path, unless the time assumptions are overstated.

So now the search starts at White River Junction, at least in my mind.

To get back to the jurisdiction issue....in my opinion the next logical(illogical) "step" in this staging process would be to stage evidence in the next jurisdiction, WMNF....
Which may have been an afterthought and motivated by the Circle of Hope ceremony.
Ben...WRJ seems to figure into this somehow.

Mr Franklin, how interesting that you are 302 years old. I wonder if there are any readers here who are 112 years old, or perhaps 116.

You wrote:
[QUOTE who="GARY E. LINDSLEY, Staff Writer Thursday May 6, 2004 Caledonian Record]
She then turned right onto Route 112 and apparently headed to Lincoln, which she was familiar with because of family excursions to the area.[/QUOTE]
As always, I am your faithful and humble servant, etc. &

As FireCat correctly points out, Lindsley has no way at all of knowing this. He didn't say "she may have" turned right on 112, or headed to Lincoln, and she was familiar with places in the White Mountains, which doesn't necessarily mean that she was familiar with Swiftwater. It is far too easy to assume that something is a fact when it is based merely on conjecture, hearsay or opinion - then the non-fact ends up in the discussion as a given. Not helpful.

Honestly, I don't recall having seen posts from those who know Maura saying explicitly that she was familiar with / had stayed in Lincoln/Woodstock or even Bartlett. Even if she was familiar with those areas and had stayed there, I'm not sure what that proves or attempts to prove.

Also -
"It would take 2 hours 47 minutes to get there, and from 4:37 to 7:00 PM - 2:30 when the accident happened, that leaves little time for diversion from her path, unless the time assumptions are overstated.
So now the search starts at White River Junction, at least in my mind."

Again, these are assumptions which you are stating as facts. It takes "2 hrs 47 mins" to get where? and from where? Do you know for a fact where Maura was when she checked her voice mail, if in fact she did? Do you know for a fact how fast she was driving, if she made any stops enroute, where Maura stopped driving? No.
The search could start in White River Junction. It could - and should, in my opinion, start at Umass, and include any and all points between there and Swiftwater. Furthermore, I-91 is the most obvious route to Wells River (NOT, however, to Swiftwater) but it is far from the only route, or even the only reasonable route. Rt 10 from Hanover goes to Woodsville. Rt 5 in VT goes to Wells River.

Again, the "Occams Razor" theory of "the most obvious solution is correct" is swell when it is corret, not so swell when it isn't.

umm... or maybe Ben Franklin was born in 1706.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
The short answer to that is "whenever your body darn well feels like it." So.....yes, it is possible, depending on where in the cycle one's body is. Spotting, full-out menstrual period, what have you.
And that, like me personally or not, happens to be a fact, folks.

It also depends on the type of birth control pills and their strength. Were they a combination of hormones or just one hormone? How many pills were left in the pack?

elsewherebriefly wrote:

Oh and one final thought, I know of a town in New Hampshire that only hires full time residents from within that town only on the police force. I'm dating myself and maybe things have changed but I don't think so. I always found this to be interesting to say the least.

Actually, that's a very common practice in a lot of cities--there are some big cities here in RI (I know, it's an oxymoron, to say the least) that do just that---Providence (the capital) is one of them. You have to reside in Providence to work for the city. Its believed that people care more about the city if its your own.

sophie bean wrote:

Mr Franklin, how interesting that you are 302 years old. I wonder if there are any readers here who are 112 years old, or perhaps 116.
You wrote:
<quoted text>
As always, I am your faithful and humble servant, etc. &
As FireCat correctly points out, Lindsley has no way at all of knowing this. He didn't say "she may have" turned right on 112, or headed to Lincoln, and she was familiar with places in the White Mountains, which doesn't necessarily mean that she was familiar with Swiftwater. It is far too easy to assume that something is a fact when it is based merely on conjecture, hearsay or opinion - then the non-fact ends up in the discussion as a given. Not helpful.
Honestly, I don't recall having seen posts from those who know Maura saying explicitly that she was familiar with / had stayed in Lincoln/Woodstock or even Bartlett. Even if she was familiar with those areas and had stayed there, I'm not sure what that proves or attempts to prove.
Also -
"It would take 2 hours 47 minutes to get there, and from 4:37 to 7:00 PM - 2:30 when the accident happened, that leaves little time for diversion from her path, unless the time assumptions are overstated.
So now the search starts at White River Junction, at least in my mind."
Again, these are assumptions which you are stating as facts. It takes "2 hrs 47 mins" to get where? and from where? Do you know for a fact where Maura was when she checked her voice mail, if in fact she did? Do you know for a fact how fast she was driving, if she made any stops enroute, where Maura stopped driving? No.
The search could start in White River Junction. It could - and should, in my opinion, start at Umass, and include any and all points between there and Swiftwater. Furthermore, I-91 is the most obvious route to Wells River (NOT, however, to Swiftwater) but it is far from the only route, or even the only reasonable route. Rt 10 from Hanover goes to Woodsville. Rt 5 in VT goes to Wells River.
Again, the "Occams Razor" theory of "the most obvious solution is correct" is swell when it is corret, not so swell when it isn't.

Yep rip it to him. Good job! Gosh this is more entertaining than cartoons. Your kindness just oozes out of every post you make.

Weeper seemed to connect the overheard statement about a youth running (on 2/9 PM near the 112-116 intersection) with the impending thorough search of the 112-snowbank-weathered-barn area. Does that mean evidence at the A-frame is unrelated to Maura's case? But it could be evidence in one of the other unsolved murders mentioned on this forum? Is that why there's so much confusion? Evidence (knife, carpet) that might be related to someone else?

Hello Sophie Bean,

I do agree with your statement that the search for Maura should start at UMass Amherst and go all the way to Swiftwater.

That´s a long journey and as far as I´ve been able to ascertain there is not one single publicly known observation of Maura anywhere between her leaving Amherst and the arrival of her car in Swiftwater.

With all due respect I do happen to think, though, that you were a bit harsh on Ben Franklin in your recent post...

Whence came you?

sophie bean wrote:

Again, the "Occams Razor" theory of "the most obvious solution is correct" is swell when it is corret, not so swell when it isn't.

SB this isn’t really a good description of Occams razor. The principle actually states that in order to explain any phenomenon. The person should make as few assumptions as possible and also eliminating any assumptions that make no difference in the testing of the theory.

The theory is often reduced to "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." This is often thought of as when you have multiple, theories possible and they are equal in all other respects the principle recommends selecting the theory with the fewest assumptions and postulates the least intrigue.
The theory doesn’t claim special insight or that someone cannot make a very convoluted problem. It does speak to things like this:

Two possible theories for the same scenario.

Maura crashed her car somewhere before the barn corner and then left that crash to proceed to the barn site and crashed her car again.
OR
Maura was forced off the road or crashed at the first site then was kidnapped from that crash then a second person then drove Maura’s car to the crash scene at the barn.

----Which theory has the least number of assumptions and is simpler to give the effect seen?

Instead of trying to do the entire overview of the whole scene just go through it piece by piece like this. See what you come up with for a theory of the whole scene.

Another example:

A Maura look-a-like bent on causing harm to Maura went to the liquor store to buy alcohol to lead police and others into believing that Maura might have been driving and drinking. The look-a-like then loaded Maura’s car with the alcohol and drove Maura’s car to make the car accidents look like she might have been possibly intoxicated but also removed some of the alcohol apparently because those bottles weren’t part of the ruse and were to be drunk by the perps latter. Remembering that some of the alcohol was reported missing if I remember correctly.
OR
Maura was seen in the liquor store buying alcohol and that Maura might have been driving and drinking in Maura’s car and had an accident. She either took the bottles of alcohol when she left or was discarding them as she was driving.

----Again, which theory has the least number of assumptions and is simpler to give the effect seen?


One more:
Maura has a second crash at the barn. She panics after having this second accident and leaving that other scene and has possibly been drinking. CS sees a single set of prints leaving the car as she leaves the area.
OR
SBD sees Maura and thinks my friend and co-conspirator officer Smith is coming so now is our time to put that plan on kidnapping and raping and having a sex slave into effect. Somehow smuggles Maura onto the bus for abuse at a latter date and no one is the wiser because CS is in on the plan and has scared everyone into not talking about what they have seen, to ANYONE, EVER.

----Again, which theory has the least number of assumptions and is simpler to give the effect seen?

Really, speak some of these out loud when reading them. It should be embarrassing.

Jefferson

WMtn wrote:

Whence came you?

To whom is this addressed? In the meanwhile, I shall behold the irony.

Jefferson wrote:

<quoted text>
Somehow smuggles Maura onto the bus for abuse at a latter date and no one is the wiser because CS is in on the plan and has scared everyone into not talking about what they have seen, to ANYONE, EVER. Jefferson

As I recall from the old MMM forum in a reply to me with a stated similar scenario..."Maura was never on the bus."

where the police involved anyhow? dirty cops?