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Ben Franklin
Hayward, CA
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Judged:
1
One question I have - how elevated was the bus relative to the Saturn Roof? But I think the speculation could be narrowed down with some electron microscopy done on the roof. Microscopic fragments would likely exist. I recommend but do not know the cost. As to Mr. Atwood pulling back to a place out of view....thinking out loud. If a life ending crime happened it would likely result in blood loss. Weather it were noticeable or not by the girlfriend - I don't know. If she were knocked out and subdued somehow to prevent Maura from escaping. Almost seems to require collusion here. Not reporting a blood stained shit, guarding Maura while the police were there or a dirty cop in collusion. Otherwise he would have to be able to subdue her for quite some time without anyone noticing and then commit the unspeakable when alone. I don't know anything about his work hours and hers to think if it is possible. I see no reason for SBD to go out of sight of the person you offered to help. Even further if that contradicts his habit. How could there not be probable cause to search the house? It wasn't because it would get him closer to the door to inform his girlfriend to call. No he went to an outbuilding. He had more important things to do then call...at least in his mind. If we disbelieve Mr. Atwood - then its very likely Maura did not turn down help. This leaves either that she actually agreed to go with Mr. Atwood or if not - I have no doubt that Maura would scream if not knocked out after danger was apparent. The neighbors would have heard Maura screaming and we would know about it. Or both perhaps. This was a surprise. Whiston - here is your half hour. Maura agrees to go to house - locks her car doors. Takes a few things with her to go to Telephone just long enough for the wait. Its rude to read in the company of a good Samaritan. Leave the book. He knocks Maura out. He leaves the Chloroform rag in the Saturn's tailpipe. Puts it in the Saturn's tailpipe before he moves the bus and Maura. I don't know if it was one or two movements. He's not in a rush until the police are called, but no reason not to use the bus. Why leave the rag there - possibly because he didn't want the girlfriend to know or that the chemical won't dissipate easily.
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Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Comments: 472
Södertälje, Sweden
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Hello all,
The reaction of the growling dog seems to me to indicate that a person was likely hiding in the darkness off the 112.
As dogs are extremely sensitive animals they would immeditaley pick up anything out of the ordinary, especially if being taken out for a walk along the same route every day.
Anything unexpected which in the mind of the dog "shouldn´t" be at a certain place would make it go off into a growl as described.
Very interesting, indeed...
If Maura or a Maura-look-alike was, in fact, not alone in the car, perhaps this other person temporarily ran into hiding off the 112, so as not to remain in/by the Saturn, only to be later picked up with Maura (?) by another car passing by (the red truck?).
Just thinking out loud, again...
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Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Comments: 472
Södertälje, Sweden
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Cave Dude wrote: Previous to posts #3903 & #3904 - I believed that the whole mystery could parsed more cleanly if we could verify that it was Maura who was in the car that Mr. Atwood spoke to.(I was convinced at this point that she could not be misidentified by Massachusetts investigators.)
But the maybe about her appearance and the below convinced me that maybe it wasn't her. If it wasn't her - but she resembled Maura enough to get a "Maybe" out of Mr. Atwood (Who at that point based on the below I believed did not commit the crime) then FOR THIS TO BE POSSIBLE IN ALL LIKLIHOOD - someone had to either plan to place the look alike there - or someone that was a criminal had to "shop" for a victim - which brings us back to Amhurst. But everybody's talking about the accident scene again and here we are running in circles.
I don't know what to make of it except that unless we really know what the facts are - this will go nowhere.
Frustrated, annoyed - but I blame nobody.
...
It was said: "This answer either places Maura in the car or places Mr. Atwood as a participant in a conspiracy. At this point it is a matter of subtantiating Mr. Atwood's assertion that he did not abduct her. The fact that the scene was statged does not preclude Maura's involvement in the staging. Her actions show that she had an undisclosed agenda and because of this, I wouldn't put it past her to stage the accident. But I also see that the staging puts Mr. Atwood in a precarious position."
Weeper said: "Your assumption is wrong on both accounts here, Mr. Franklin.
1. Assuming Mr. Atwoods statement is truthful, he saw a female who looked like Maura but different in at least one aspect, to wit: her hair was different.
2. Mis-identification is no basis (on its own standing) to assume an active attempt to deceive. Eye witness accounts are always circumstantial evidence”for this very reason, Mr.Franklin.
Again, be careful how you set your questions and statements Mr. Franklin; Mr.Atwood does not have to assert he did not abduct Maura. Mr. Atwood at this point is merely a witness and not a person of interest/suspect. This is only one of many statements made by Mr. Atwood and a judgment of 'credibility' can not be made standing on one statement.
As to Maura’s “undisclosed agenda”, your assumption may or may not be correct only if we (collectively) knew what that agenda was.
Again, if Mr. Atwood played an active role in the occurrence of this incident, it would be foolish to place it in your own front yard. We feel the location was picked (in an area where there existed a locale full time; albeit small, Police Department and just shy of Federal property, to wit The White Mountain National Forest) for 'jurisdictional' reasons." CaveDude & all, It´s quite interesting to note that Weeper here seems NOT to indicate any kind of guilt as for the SBD (A-d), while in his latest post here on the forum plainly implies some kind of involvement by the SBD. I just cannot reconcile these two seemingly different positions re the SBD. Am I just being thick-headed here?
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Looking4AMoose
Woonsocket, RI
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Eurobserver wrote: Hello all,
The reaction of the growling dog seems to me to indicate that a person was likely hiding in the darkness off the 112.
As dogs are extremely sensitive animals they would immeditaley pick up anything out of the ordinary, especially if being taken out for a walk along the same route every day.
Anything unexpected which in the mind of the dog "shouldn´t" be at a certain place would make it go off into a growl as described.
Very interesting, indeed...
If Maura or a Maura-look-alike was, in fact, not alone in the car, perhaps this other person temporarily ran into hiding off the 112, so as not to remain in/by the Saturn, only to be later picked up with Maura (?) by another car passing by (the red truck?).
Just thinking out loud, again... or....like my beast, the dog is just hypersensitive at night. My "pooch" is far more attentive to ANYTHING that moves once darkness begins to set in, even on his usual nightly walk which is almost exactly the same path every night while at home. Anything out of the ordinary puts him in high alert status.
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Looking4AMoose
Woonsocket, RI
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Judged:
1
gvmeabrk wrote: Well, all I can say is the man with Maura is guilty. Maura is missing and he was seen with Maura. Or, is he someone the FAMILY knows and is taking good care of Maura? Do tell. If I had a daughter missing and she was seen by someone with a man I would want his description and pleas for tips as to his identity. Tell me, have the PI's found this man and it so, why not say so.
You have to advise against this...is that why my accurate post of what I saw that day never posted to topix?? If I were a family member, I would be hiring someone to meet with you to get a composite sketch of this man drawn.......and if I were so concerned that he is innoceent until proven guilty, I'd release exactly what was checked into and WHY he is innocent--so the siting can be put to rest. IMHO, until then, much else of the conversation on this board is futile.
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Quija
Acton, MA
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Cave Dude wrote: Previous to posts #3903 & #3904 - I believed that the whole mystery could parsed more cleanly if we could verify that it was Maura who was in the car that Mr. Atwood spoke to.(I was convinced at this point that she could not be misidentified by Massachusetts investigators.)
But the maybe about her appearance and the below convinced me that maybe it wasn't her. If it wasn't her - but she resembled Maura enough to get a "Maybe" out of Mr. Atwood (Who at that point based on the below I believed did not commit the crime) then FOR THIS TO BE POSSIBLE IN ALL LIKLIHOOD - someone had to either plan to place the look alike there - or someone that was a criminal had to "shop" for a victim - which brings us back to Amhurst. But everybody's talking about the accident scene again and here we are running in circles.
I don't know what to make of it except that unless we really know what the facts are - this will go nowhere.
Frustrated, annoyed - but I blame nobody.
...
It was said: "This answer either places Maura in the car or places Mr. Atwood as a participant in a conspiracy. At this point it is a matter of subtantiating Mr. Atwood's assertion that he did not abduct her. The fact that the scene was statged does not preclude Maura's involvement in the staging. Her actions show that she had an undisclosed agenda and because of this, I wouldn't put it past her to stage the accident. But I also see that the staging puts Mr. Atwood in a precarious position."
Weeper said: "Your assumption is wrong on both accounts here, Mr. Franklin.
1. Assuming Mr. Atwoods statement is truthful, he saw a female who looked like Maura but different in at least one aspect, to wit: her hair was different.
2. Mis-identification is no basis (on its own standing) to assume an active attempt to deceive. Eye witness accounts are always circumstantial evidence”for this very reason, Mr.Franklin.
Again, be careful how you set your questions and statements Mr. Franklin; Mr.Atwood does not have to assert he did not abduct Maura. Mr. Atwood at this point is merely a witness and not a person of interest/suspect. This is only one of many statements made by Mr. Atwood and a judgment of 'credibility' can not be made standing on one statement.
As to Maura’s “undisclosed agenda”, your assumption may or may not be correct only if we (collectively) knew what that agenda was.
Again, if Mr. Atwood played an active role in the occurrence of this incident, it would be foolish to place it in your own front yard. We feel the location was picked (in an area where there existed a locale full time; albeit small, Police Department and just shy of Federal property, to wit The White Mountain National Forest) for 'jurisdictional' reasons." Cave Dude -- Thanks for assembling this. It sounds like Saturday Night Live. Some of the material you quoted from the Team, combined with Yesterday's New Post from Weeper re the SBD, also sounds like Sarah Palin might in tonight's upcoming debate.(Sorry to talk like a wise ass.) But it doesn't make sense, hang together, or really say anything. Did you think that too? Maybe it's just too early in the morning so, "I'll haveta get back to ya."
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Quija
Acton, MA
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Citigirl, thanks for the additional details about the footprints on the M's property. I wasn't referring to you when I said I didn't expect an answer anymore... it was just general negativity. Thanks, Quij.
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Quija
Acton, MA
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Judged:
3
3
So, reading Ben Franklin's and others' posts... some more speculation.... Did Maura's Saturn at some earlier point hit the back of the SBD's bus? Did SBD back onto his property as witnesses said? Because I think Whitewash might've said that wasn't true --- need to check that. Why wouldn't SBD report the accident (of Maura hitting the back of the bus)? Why would SBD (after apparently not having a violent past) suddenly assault a girl when he's in late middle age? If Mr. M was correct in supposing (while talking to CitiGirl) that the person in the Saturn was lost, that would explain the SBD taking a few extra minutes with the driver giving directions. Or in Ben Franklin's scenario of collusion, he and the driver would have plans to make. If the person in the Saturn wasn't Maura, but was a long-haired male, could it have been a former student the SBD knew? I earlier wondered if it was a son of an "important person". What would make the SBD lie? Who would he be most likely to lie FOR? And that seems to lead back to his desire to be part of LE and to help them. You know, at this point, without rereading almost 300 pages I can't separate the Team's Facts from the Team's Best Guesses. It's hard to remember this when there's no presented evidence, no foundation, to hang these fact/guesses on to give them form.
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elsewherebriefly
Shallotte, NC
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Judged:
1
Instead of factoring in guilt as a possible reason for the bus driver's conflicting statements maybe one should consider fear as a factor instead.
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Quija
Acton, MA
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Judged:
1
elsewherebriefly wrote: Instead of factoring in guilt as a possible reason for the bus driver's conflicting statements maybe one should consider fear as a factor instead. Elsewhere --- fear... hmmm... yes, it could've been someone he just didn't want to mess with, particularly with a girlfriend and mom in the house who could be hurt too... Sorry about my earlier Sarah Palin remark --- it really was inappropriate and uncalled for in this forum.
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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Judged:
1
1
Mr. M has a walking path which Fire Personal did search that night along with a deer run behind the Westmans. Fire Personal when up Old Peter's Road! Smith went up Bradley Hill. There are 5 neighbors oddly in "the middle of no where" 3 of the 5 where outside the night of the accident! It is a single tree with the Ribbon on the accident actually occured up the road towards Atwoods. It was also reported on MMM that Mr. M supposedly stated he heard her driving to move the car. Anne1 I did not say Healy was NHSP at the time of accident! Quija wrote: Citigirl, thanks for the additional details about the footprints on the M's property. I wasn't referring to you when I said I didn't expect an answer anymore... it was just general negativity. Thanks, Quij.
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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Judged:
3
Where did I state SP? If you check the DISPATCH LOG that Helena had you will see the call I am referring to. Odd all the Mr. M talks and just now you are dropping the lady walking the dog piece and odd how many of us who are just learning about this now interesting. citigirl wrote: <quoted text>ummm is this a miss print or was John Healy still a SP officer in Feb. 2004?
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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Shack stop with all this from your Cousins Cabin crap. You know that blood came back belong to Claudes Girl friends daughter! Maura birth control was found in the warrant search and per a Murray Family member 9 pills where missing. Given my birth control pill experience Maura was not having her period. Shack wrote: Weeper, We don't have "search" here...could/would you find your Posts regarding "blood on carpet" and witness hospital employee's route home that night. It appears some remember employee driving on route 10 homeward bound..not the Swiftwater Road to Goose. Also, that blood was found on clothes in a hamper.
Maybe you could copy/paste those sections...?
If you can't...no problem....Keepin' on.....although sluggish at times....
Citigirl, thanks for the memory jump start....
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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Maybe you fact in the orginal STATEMENT made to police not those after being tweaked! elsewherebriefly wrote: Instead of factoring in guilt as a possible reason for the bus driver's conflicting statements maybe one should consider fear as a factor instead.
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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The police/dogs went through Atwood's bus pretty certain they would have zero in on any rear damage. After Atwoods moved the current owners allowed the property to be searched. That is why Atwood's first statements are so the most important. Quija wrote: So, reading Ben Franklin's and others' posts... some more speculation....
Did Maura's Saturn at some earlier point hit the back of the SBD's bus?
Did SBD back onto his property as witnesses said? Because I think Whitewash might've said that wasn't true --- need to check that.
Why wouldn't SBD report the accident (of Maura hitting the back of the bus)?
Why would SBD (after apparently not having a violent past) suddenly assault a girl when he's in late middle age?
If Mr. M was correct in supposing (while talking to CitiGirl) that the person in the Saturn was lost, that would explain the SBD taking a few extra minutes with the driver giving directions. Or in Ben Franklin's scenario of collusion, he and the driver would have plans to make.
If the person in the Saturn wasn't Maura, but was a long-haired male, could it have been a former student the SBD knew? I earlier wondered if it was a son of an "important person".
What would make the SBD lie?
Who would he be most likely to lie FOR?
And that seems to lead back to his desire to be part of LE and to help them.
You know, at this point, without rereading almost 300 pages I can't separate the Team's Facts from the Team's Best Guesses. It's hard to remember this when there's no presented evidence, no foundation, to hang these fact/guesses on to give them form.
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Emily
Anonymous Proxy
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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Oh an Atwood allowed the property to be searched until people TURNED ON HIM! So if he had something to do with it why did he allow a search? Call me stupid this BUS was USED and still is USED do you honest think any of his coworkers wouldn't point out he HIT SOMETHING? What are the chances of a cop pulling out behind this bus? I'm going with 99.9%. You? A little common sense goes a long ways! White Wash wrote: The police/dogs went through Atwood's bus pretty certain they would have zero in on any rear damage.
After Atwoods moved the current owners allowed
the property to be searched.
That is why Atwood's first statements are so
the most important.
<quoted text>
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Emily
Anonymous Proxy
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gvmeabrk
Weare, NH
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Emily wrote: Anyone get a sort of unexpected golden parachute? I believe you are the 2nd person to ask that question since I have been on topix. That I have seen.
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Caveman
Oakland, CA
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Quija - I won't speak for Weeper - but my guess is that some type of new information has factored into his change of mind.
I think that is par for the course.
I also think we did a good job as a group looking at the possibility he raised.
Anyway - Weeper may have something himself to say - or maybe he cannot.
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