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Where is MAURA MURRAY

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Cave Dude

San Mateo, CA

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#5659
Oct 5, 2008
 

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Part 2

Now, I've been told second hand - by someone that had no reason to lie - that certain classes of driver licenses can be revoked - or jobs lost with one accident.
If Mr. Atwood, driving his bus hit the Saturn down the road and it caused Maura's death - he'd loose his job and have reason to cover up the accident. His job and the home they provided for him. He wanted to do the right thing - but not loose his job over it - especially if it were Maura that hit his bus.
Perhaps they looked for some items in the trunk to use to get the car started after the fatal accident. In the process the rag was found - she grabbed it. She could have used the rag as a makeshift set of gloves - to keep prints from being left. After all - someone had died and if they decided to do this - being charged with murder is worse then loosing a job.
No reason to keep the rag, and if she was in a hurry - she might of just stuffed the rag in the tailpipe to get rid of it quickly.

His girlfriend then would drive the car to their house, and Mr. Atwood would follow. After the girlfriend arrived - she would drive it into some trees.
Mr. Atwood would pull up, talk to her. She would then call the police about the "accident."

Problem is - no blood in the car. Fatal accident - but no blood - close to impossible.
Cave Dude

San Mateo, CA

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#5660
Oct 5, 2008
 

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I don't know if the police record of the girlfriend's phone call shows that it came from a land line or a cell phone. If it was a land line inside the - this is impossible - she can't be outside on a cell phone in view of a witness and inside on a land line at the same time.

This scenario assumes the car was drivable - if it was not then this is impossible.

The problem with assuming the bus towed the car is that the Westmans only saw the car, but not the bus. Depends upon the vantage point of the witnesses - maybe the bus was there but only the Marrottes could see it.

The first witness only saw a car - the second witness, at a later time, saw a car and a bus.

The first witness heard a thud and were looking seconds later. If the car was undrivable and towed by the bus - they would have seen the bus, unless it was out of their view.

For this to be possible - the bus would need to have some towing material in it.

The scenario also paints further behind the scene actions.

If Maura was dead, her body was moved either from the road (if she was thrown from the car in the accident)- or moved from her car. If the body was placed in the bus - he'd be able to put Maura in the outbuilding.

The scenario is disproved by:

1. Dogs searched the bus - and Maura's scent was not found.

2. No blood found in a car in which the driver was killed in a fatal accident.

Even if these two disproving factors were considered - The scenario could be disproved if:

1. He would not loose his job/home because of the accident

2. The car was not drivable (That is - before the hypothetical staged accident:) we have to know weather the car could have become undrivable at the site of the hypothetical staging.

3. His girlfriend was not with him that day (unless he was going to pick her up somewhere on the way back)

4. The call to police was made by land line inside the house.

5. We can determine the Bus was unable to tow the car.

[1]Which I doubt - because nothing done by the person we're calling Maura makes sense after 11:00 PM the night before.
WHITE WASH

Worcester, MA

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#5662
Oct 5, 2008
 

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Thank you Citigirl that would be nice
if you took up where Helena has left who
did a WONDERFUL JOB trying to bridge the
gaps to keep the stories and information flowing as it should!
www.jonews.com
citigirl wrote:
quote White Wash the locals are tired of being beaten to death by nasty remarks! quote If I wrote a letter to the locals would it be possible that you print it in your paper?
WHITE WASH

Worcester, MA

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#5663
Oct 5, 2008
 
That was COOL THANKS!
Actually Mr. Murray NAMED ME!
Check out the Hanson Express!
Yup that me! White Wash!
Must be one of those pet names CAPTAIN
JACK refers to!
Very Cool Post!
Cave Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Parlez-vous français ?
"White Wash" est un idiome Dans l'anglais américain, il signifie souvent la peau la vérité.
L'idiome est dérivé de la pratique commune de la ligne de propriétéà la maison de peinture clôture le blanc - personne n'enlève la couche inférieure de peinture endommagée - la peinture blanche dissimule la barrière endommagée dessous.
Je ne crois pas que c'est votre intention.
Peut-être dans le français "lavage blanc" les idiome moyens nettoient un désordre?
Do you speak French?
"White Wash" is an idiom. In American English, it often means hide the truth. The idiom is derived from the common practice of painting home property line fences white - no one to removes the lower layer of damaged paint - the white paint covers up the damaged fence underneath.
I do not believe this is your intent.
Maybe in French "White Wash" idiom means clean up a mess?
FireCat

United States

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#5664
Oct 5, 2008
 

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Half Moon--yes, SBD, his mother, and girlfriend, have moved to Florida. HE may well have gone with his mother, rather than saying, "Hey let's move to Florida honey." Nothing NECESSARILY terrible there.

As to why he might lie--I am not saying this is the case, but some people are just compulsive liars. Storytellers. They spin tales to make themselves sound cooler than they really are. "I used to be LE" for instance, might make a guy think he sounds really cool.

That's the thing about compulsive liars--they lie for NO REASON. It's pathological. Sometimes they do it to make themselves feel important. Sometimes they don't even know they're doing it.

Joined: Jun 16, 2008

Comments: 472

Södertälje, Sweden

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#5665
Oct 5, 2008
 
Quija wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Half Moon,
JMHO but I think since Maura was so close to her dad -- they were running and hiking buddies -- that, yes, going to church on Father's Day could be of significance.
quija & half moon,

Yes, I definitely find it significant that the possible Maura sighting in the Barton, VT, church took place on Father´s Day 2005.
According to the witness reports that I have read, the witness, an esteemed member of the church in question, especially remarked on "Maura´s" runner´s legs and her tightly curled hair. He also found it surprising that a young lady with such flawless skin would be using a lot of foundation cream applied to her face.
As for the name "Raykel", I suppose it may just have been made up then and there for no particular reaosn.
There have been speculation, though, that "Ray" could be a reference to the family name "Murray" and that the "kel" could have some other significance.

Gvmeabrk´s possible sighting of Maura in the NH convenience store is strange, even if we take your very plausible explanation into account here, Quija.
If Gvmeabrk actually looked at the presumed "couple" for up to 3 minutes and they still didn´t seem to react to that....Well, somebody here said "cult-like" behaviour, and I would tend to agree up to a point. That kind of non-reaction is almost equally as unsettling as the very opposite.
If the male actually (God forbid) was a kind of captor/minder/similar, then why risk taking the Maura look-alike with him into a convenience store, full of people and for quite some time as well???
It just doesn´t make sense, does it?
Or perhaps these two people were not actually there "together" in any real sense of the word at all? It´s possible.

And my sincerest, warmest and deepest sympathies for you, Gvmeabrk.

Euro
Half Moon

Reading, MA

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#5666
Oct 5, 2008
 

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Hours later it dawns on me, why I asked the original psychic question. Did I read somewhere that one said Maura was in Littleton, MA? Or was I totally mistaken? If so, did the psychic say she was alive or do they all concur she has passed away?

I dont know about the rest of you, but every time I come to this site, it HAUNTS me that there is actually somebody(s) that REALLY knows what happened, and all of you spend SO much time and heart felt energy in working on this! All I can say is - karma -! What goes around comes around! God forbid this person or person is watching all of you work so hard on finding Maura. There is a place for people like that!

I often wonder if the whole solution is right there on the tip of someone's tongue. You all are a very dedicated group of people. That's it for today, just a big warm fuzzy to all that work so hard.
Half Moon

Reading, MA

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#5667
Oct 5, 2008
 
Sorry, one more thing. Is there only one church in Barton, VT?

Joined: Jun 16, 2008

Comments: 472

Södertälje, Sweden

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#5668
Oct 5, 2008
 
Half Moon wrote:
Sorry, one more thing. Is there only one church in Barton, VT?
Hello Half Moon,

No, I believe there are several churches in Barton, VT, although it´s just a very small place with some 2000-3000 people, just a short hop south from the Canadian border.

I have seen the name of this particular church mentioned and should have it written down somewhere. I have even seen a picture of it on Internet once.
Anybody else here who recalls the name of the church?

I believe it was one of our posters here who some time ago mentioned that a psychic had mentioned to her that Maura were to be found in Littleton, MA. Whether alive or (God forbid) not wasn´t explicitly mentioned in the post, as I recall it.

Hope that others here on board know more about this....
elsewherebriefly

Shallotte, NC

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#5669
Oct 5, 2008
 

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It's Biker Week south of me at Myrtle Beach. I am thankful the weather has been great for the riders and their passangers. Couldn't help but notice how many of the men had long hair while passing by me on the highway.
WHITE WASH

Worcester, MA

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#5670
Oct 5, 2008
 
I thought the Mother went to MA and
SBD and Exwife went to FL?
FireCat wrote:
Half Moon--yes, SBD, his mother, and girlfriend, have moved to Florida. HE may well have gone with his mother, rather than saying, "Hey let's move to Florida honey." Nothing NECESSARILY terrible there.
As to why he might lie--I am not saying this is the case, but some people are just compulsive liars. Storytellers. They spin tales to make themselves sound cooler than they really are. "I used to be LE" for instance, might make a guy think he sounds really cool.
That's the thing about compulsive liars--they lie for NO REASON. It's pathological. Sometimes they do it to make themselves feel important. Sometimes they don't even know they're doing it.
Half Moon

Reading, MA

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#5671
Oct 5, 2008
 
Euro,
Thank you. If anyone has the name.........I think I saw it somewhere, I will look again. I know some others on this board have been in and around the areas mentioned in the news and in the posts. Just wondering if anyone here has personally been to this church, or talked with any parishoners. You all are so astute (sp) with the events of that night and the clues and inconsistencies. I seem to like looking at the potential sightings, even though they have been discounted. Probably the easier to deal with for me, I guess.
Elsewhere, believe it or not, it seems like biker week here, too!!!!!!!!!! All weekend the bikes have been up and down Rte 125, I think there was some sort of fundraiser bike run, and yes, there is a lot of hair!(a bit cold for a bike ride)
citigirl

Bridgewater, MA

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#5672
Oct 5, 2008
 
Quija wrote:
Why would SBD lie about seeing and talking to a girl in the Saturn? Anyone else think that right now this is one of the big questions?
Did SBD make up the little conversation he and "Maura" had? Is that why his story varied from telling to telling on small points, like hazard lights, where each was standing, the airbag having deployed and SBD not being able to see the lower face of the girl, etc.?
How would SBD know to SAY it was a girl unless he had seen her earlier? Or had been radioed about her.
Or, did he ID her as a girl because it was a MALE who SBD was going to protect for some reason?
What reason? SBD had no kids, no sons, right? Girlfriend and SBD moved there from Mass. so... were there any other young relatives living locally in the Haverhill area? Would he lie to protect a neighbor's son? What male would SBD want to protect, cover for? Risk his job for? It had to be something/someone important to him.
And what, in general, was important to him? I don't know, except everyone said he wanted to feel he was powerful and helpful and have stuff to boast about, maybe saying he was LE.
Would he lie for a police officer? Maybe --- What if an OFFICER relocated the Saturn to protect another large-scale investigation going on that night?(A number of other LE vehicles on the road that night.)
All these years people have said that mostly LE, town employees, rangers, and criminals would know about jurisdictions.
If a criminal moved the car and SBD was afraid of him, I guess he'd lie for him. But SBD was enjoying being in the limelight for a while. I don't think he would've been if he was scared for his life! So, maybe it had to be lying for LE.
Maybe moving the Saturn somehow worked for LE in the other investigation that night.
Maybe that's how CS knew what was missing in the Saturn?
Maybe... well, I've just started thinking about this, so maybe others will have more ideas. Or let me know this is the wrong direction....
this is my own personal thoughts. At one time I did suspect SBD because of his own inconsistant stories. He cast suspicion on to himself by doing this. But after piecing things together I don't believe he had anything to do with Maura's disappearance.I really believe that SBD is telling the truth about seeing a female. The question is was it Maura or not. I believe he was being truthful when he said it looked like her but her hair was down. How could he positively identify someone he had never seen before. Remember it was dark and he only saw this person for several minutes.Could it be before he had the opportunity to get out off his bus that he was now a witness to a crime? Could this be why Mr M thought he was calling 911 from his bus? Did he really try to call 911 or did he wait in his bus until the coast was clear and thats when he went in to call police. Maybe he knows who is responsible for Maura's disappearance. If he did infact witness a crime he would be more noticable to the perp or perpertrators if he was driving around in his bus so maybe thats why he took his own vehicle. I truly believe that SBD knows something
quija

Sudbury, MA

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#5673
Oct 5, 2008
 

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Hi Cave Dude,

To clear this up, I don't think the SBD towed the Saturn with the bus. No way this spectacle wouldn't be observed!

I also doubt SBD's girlfriend was ON the bus trip with him since there were a lot of witnesses (students and parents) to this. And everyone in town would've heard.

I don't know how much Weeper was saying the SBD lied in his statement. It could be as little as saying he told the girl to put on her hazard lights since it was a dangerous corner, and in reality the driver had already put them on. He could have lied about his offers of help and instead berated her for being in such a dangerous spot, or appearing intoxicated whether her unsteadiness was due to alcohol or just trying to open the car door into the packed snowbank and get out of the car with any grace. I guess I took Weeper's statement to mean that it was not Maura in the Saturn and that the SBD was aware of that, but didn't say that.

It depends how big the lie is whether it was just to avoid embarassment/ look better OR if it was to mislead, etc. Before I endlessly labor this point, I guess Weeper's posts should all be carefully looked at.(Which is hard to do due to the lack of a search function.)
quija

Sudbury, MA

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#5674
Oct 5, 2008
 
citigirl wrote:
<quoted text>this is my own personal thoughts. At one time I did suspect SBD because of his own inconsistant stories. He cast suspicion on to himself by doing this. But after piecing things together I don't believe he had anything to do with Maura's disappearance.I really believe that SBD is telling the truth about seeing a female. The question is was it Maura or not. I believe he was being truthful when he said it looked like her but her hair was down. How could he positively identify someone he had never seen before. Remember it was dark and he only saw this person for several minutes.Could it be before he had the opportunity to get out off his bus that he was now a witness to a crime? Could this be why Mr M thought he was calling 911 from his bus? Did he really try to call 911 or did he wait in his bus until the coast was clear and thats when he went in to call police. Maybe he knows who is responsible for Maura's disappearance. If he did infact witness a crime he would be more noticable to the perp or perpertrators if he was driving around in his bus so maybe thats why he took his own vehicle. I truly believe that SBD knows something
Citigirl, what you said sounds balanced and reasonable: that he might know who is responsible and that he hasn't told all he knows. Period. As for driving around looking for the girl, I'd guess he took his regular private vehicle rather than an awkward, unmaneuverable bus! Particularly on curvy roads.... plus it might not even have been legal to use the bus for that purpose.
Grammar check

Exeter, NH

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#5675
Oct 5, 2008
 

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Half Moon wrote:
Just some Sunday thoughts..........
Grammar check, I was wondering if you were interested in all "NH missing" cases, or just this one.
Why do you ask?
FireCat

United States

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#5676
Oct 5, 2008
 
WHITE WASH wrote:
I thought the Mother went to MA and
SBD and Exwife went to FL?
<quoted text>
Really? I don't remember hearing that. Anyone know for sure? Bueller???

Joined: Jun 16, 2008

Comments: 472

Södertälje, Sweden

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#5677
Oct 5, 2008
 
Half Moon wrote:
Euro,
Thank you. If anyone has the name.........I think I saw it somewhere, I will look again. I know some others on this board have been in and around the areas mentioned in the news and in the posts. Just wondering if anyone here has personally been to this church, or talked with any parishoners. You all are so astute (sp) with the events of that night and the clues and inconsistencies. I seem to like looking at the potential sightings, even though they have been discounted. Probably the easier to deal with for me, I guess.
Elsewhere, believe it or not, it seems like biker week here, too!!!!!!!!!! All weekend the bikes have been up and down Rte 125, I think there was some sort of fundraiser bike run, and yes, there is a lot of hair!(a bit cold for a bike ride)
Half Moon,

Yes, these purported sightings of Maura are something I just cannot seem to forget about, however officially discounted they may be.
I should be able to find the name of that Barton church and I believe it might possibly be mentioned in the excellent Hanson Express newspaper series on Maura´s case.
I have also seen the name of the church witness mentioned before. Afterwards he is said to have been "99 percent sure" that the young lady in the church was actually Maura.
And still, this sighting and the one in NH is officially discounted...
I can´t help asking myself - how on earth could that have been established with any real certainty?
elsewherebriefly

Shallotte, NC

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#5678
Oct 5, 2008
 
Weeper wrote:
To all, if I may
Part 1 of 2
With reference to Saturn’s final resting place in the snow bank and the witnesses’ statements to Sgt. Smith within the first half hour of the incident. There has always been speculation as to the identity of the driver of the Saturn that evening for the following reasons. The first witnesses, the Westmans, initially stated they heard acceleration then a loud “thud” and when they looked out their window they saw a woman sitting in the passenger seat with the door open smoking a cigarette. Most of us agreed that it was more likely Maura attempting to use her cell phone that caused the “glowing” effect that the Westmans assumed to be a cigarette since Maura didn’t smoke. It now seems probable that the person the Westmans identified as a woman was based on their observation of a person with long hair sitting in the front passenger side of the Saturn. It wasn’t until two years later that we determined the front end damage to the Saturn didn’t occur at the curve near the Weathered Barn and that damage was the result of an “overhang” object. Please bear with me here, this “assumption” that Maura was the person the witnesses saw may have been a mistake. The Westmans stated what they saw and may have been convinced the person was in fact Maura or at least a female by all the media coverage and the family and searchers. They are good honest people who did everything they could to help find the poor girl. They said they stopped watching when Mr. Atwood showed up with the school bus shortly thereafter.
Now we come to the second witness “on scene” who was much closer to the Saturn than anyone else that night, while it was occupied. We all have heard the many variations of what he stated about what was said to him and what he claims to have seen. Over the years the media, police and everyone else continues to quote Mr. Atwood’s version of events from that evening because it all seemed to fit, on the surface. However, his actions that evening were very peculiar to his neighbors. One action in particular stands out, the way he parked the bus that evening. He backed the bus all the way up beside the house to an outbuilding and after a brief moment when he went into the house and told his live in girlfriend what happened (she was in fact the person who called the Grafton County Sherriff’s Department) he went back out and sat in the bus until Sgt. Smith walked down and spoke to him through the open door. To grasp the oddity of this action (as his neighbor did that evening) we need to understand that his girlfriend also drove a full size school bus and they always parked them in front of the house where the State installed a large floodlight (just like a street light on a public street) right on his property at the intersection with Bradley Hill Road. Had he parked his bus in it’s “usual” parking spot he would have had a clear, unobstructed view all the way up to the stranded Saturn, 560 feet (I measured it). He also claimed to have seen several vehicles pass that intersection but couldn’t identify any of them. He had never parked his bus like this, before or after, since that evening. This witness’s statements and actions leave a lot to the imagination. Mr. Atwood knows a lot more about what happened that evening but he’s not talking, especially to our investigators. He may have given LE different statements but those documents are not available to the public or the PI Team (as I said before, we don’t want them nor do we need them).
cc: for Quija and others.
elsewherebriefly

Shallotte, NC

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#5679
Oct 5, 2008
 
Weeper wrote:
Part 2 of 2
The reason for my posting this information is in the hopes that Ben Franklin can factor some of this information into his previous analysis (which I find to be very interesting by the way Ben, thank you). Also consider this, when shown a photograph of Maura, Mr. Atwood stated “well it looks like her but her hair was down”. This statement in and of itself covers any other witness statement that they saw a woman in the vehicle that evening, the identifier being the “long hair”. This is what I meant by a “Maura look-alike”(to the Westmans, not Atwood), a man with long hair. If you are going to ask me if I believe Mr. Atwood was lying when he talked to the media and the police, my answer would be yes. It wasn’t a mistake, it was a deliberate deception. Remember also when Sgt. Smith arrived and spoke with the Westmans, he asked them if they had “seen where the female from the Saturn had gone” and they told him they hadn’t, he asked that question because it was Mr. Atwood’s girlfriend who called and told Grafton County dispatch that her “husband” asked her to call about a female having run off the road. That statement from Sgt. Smith indicated believed it was a female and the Westmans assumed it was a female smoking in the front passenger seat of the Saturn when initially they thought it was a man. This is a long post, but you all wanted a bit of information and this is just one component of an investigation, analyzing witness statements. I do not, nor have I ever, believe Sgt. Smith was in any way connected to Maura’s disappearance. His filling out and filing of the “official public accident report” may have been flawed and inaccurate but not done so with any malicious intent.
Respectfully
Weeper
cc: for Quija and others.
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