Where is MAURA MURRAY

Looking at my posts 6425-6428 - I'm trying to be an honest devils advocate: In determining if it is possible that Maura was harmed between Amhurst and where the car was found - I've given more time for foul play to take place. Without ignoring the witness who saw her leave between 3:30 and 4:30 - the most time I can find is an hour. If she leaves at 2:30 - there are two hours.

*I haven't checked to see if Google Maps overestimates travel times.*

For arguement's sake I considered if she could have made it to Burlington, Vermont - even at 2:30. Yes - but there would be only about 10 - 20 minutes for foul play - assuming Google is accurate in its time estimations.

In general - the earlier she left and the more directly she traveled to the site - the greater the liklihood a crime could have taken place during the trip - and therefore putting a man in the car instead of Maura.

I've made a note of what I have ignored: The time of her departure (which is not exact enough [from what I know]) such as their could be honest debate about when her departure took place.

Hard to ignore that there was no sign of foul play (no blood) and that Mr. Atwood implies resemblance to Maura in the person he saw and reportedly spoke to. I try to reconcile those differences - but they are not strong explanations.

OK - so - Amhurst could be possible if the investigation there was flawed - yet we have the most comprehensive list of things we know she did from there (see Wikipedia article).

Unless we ignore the witness account of when she left in her car - its hard to believe there would be enough time for a crime to happen. But still no evidence of violence in the car or before arriving at the scene (no blood) even if there was enough time.

No blood (if murder) means now we have to add time to clean up - on top of the odds in previous paragraph. But we have two locations with cameras spotting someone that can at least pass for being Maura. The only reasonable explanation is a reverse look alike - and that provides time as early as Maura getting off the phone with her dad.

Even if the pictures of presumably Maura in Amhurst can be disproven - the next problem is believing that investigators did not check for blood, fingerprints and DNA in Maura's room. And we are still ignoring the eyewitness - unless we suspect that eyewitness was involved.

It could be that (if in Amhurst) foul play took place outside her dorm room and the reason no blood was discovered if checked. Requires we think that the 3:30 eyewitness was involved. If her fiance said that they actually spoke - or that she left a message at 2:18PM then we can't assume it was anyone but Maura looking for directions and calling Northern New Hampshire and Vermont.

This is why I have to wonder if the eyewiness was mistaken about time - or lying the way Weeper said he suspected Mr. Atwood may very well have.

Part 1

Lots of failure points here that I think could have been known - maybe are known. But like I said before - if the police thought that Maura was in the car at the crash site - they wouldn't bother to check for any blood, DNA, fibers, fingerprints, etc.

OK - that's the status of Amhurst - now looking at the site - we have 3 sets of presumably independent witnesses. After looking at the status of Amhurst up to that point - we suspect Mr. Atwood - until we realize the short time frame in which he could have acted - his physical condition and age (350 pounds 60 years old) and then we realize he's an unlikely suspect - but to top it off - dogs searched his bus and house.

Staging - not likely - from what would have been required: The number of people involved, and someone looking like Maura for Mr. Atwood to misidentify - points to a plan - and that isolates suspects to people she knew.

The only thing that isn't eliminated from liklihood by evidence and known parameters we have - is her fate after leaving the car and between the time Mr. Atwood saw her and Cecil Smith arrived.

Then you ask did the police do it - or a lone policeman (only way to cover up)- Weeper says no. The police logs look odd - but then we'd have to believe that the whole force is corrupt. I'm hard pressed to believe that.

Then there is discussion about a police car being at the scene about 20 minutes prior to Mr. Atwood arriving. But then we have 2 witnesses besides Mr. Atwood that saw someone in the car after that police vehicle left.

OK - we're back to did the policeman take a couple of people to the site - and kidnap Maura and leave them in her place - and they were the ones the witnesses saw. Problemm with that is that Mr. Atwood says she looked like Maura.

Mr. Atwood in collusion with a policeman and at least 1 other person? Judge for yourself.

OK - so Maura leaves the car - something happened to her after she fled the scene.

Killer at the right place / right time? How likely does that seem with police in route - but an abduction goes unnoticed? Plus the killer had to happen to be there.

Then I consider that she either wanted to go away (temporarily - but was harmed)- if so the person that took her had transport. He/she wouldn't stay there. Nothing found probably didn't.

or

An unusual medical condition lead to her leave / scared for her life (as per "Why I ran") really no reason but what was in her mind (a victim of unfortunate temporary medically induced chemistry.) and is picked up by a bad guy along the journey - or runs till she dropps in the National Forest.

Or

She and at least one other person planned to have her go away and start a new life. Either unknown boyfriend or unidentified person or persons. Motives mentioned implicates Maura with Vasi - I think its a matter of opinion at this point - unless again - someone takes an electron microscope to the hood of the car.

The only reason Killer at the right place at the right time holds up is because we have no information beyond the discussion in the car - other then a witness that leads us to believe she fled the scene (futher clears Atwood.)

The medical condition and the wisking away could explain the unexplained at Amherst.

I fear the answer is further up the road - but no witnesses saw anything - or if they did - will not say.

Part 2

Well mcsmom, I hope it helped in some way.Thanks!

Ben.....very thorough. Mind-bending, but thorough.

And it emphasizes for me once again just HOW MUCH WE DON'T KNOW.

Fact check--did dogs (or people, for that matter) search the bus? I know PEOPLE searched the property. Did dogs? Did ANYONE search the bus? I don't remember knowing this. Right now the only dog that comes to mind for certain in that vicinity is the air scent dog that lost her scent in the area of his driveway, 100 yards down the road from her car.

White Wash wrote:

The police/dogs went through Atwood's bus pretty certain they would have zero in on any rear damage.
After Atwoods moved the current owners allowed
the property to be searched.
That is why Atwood's first statements are so
the most important.
<quoted text>

Firecat, hope this helps.

Firecat - thank you for looking and saying where I can be off. And of course Elsewhere.

That is where I got that information from -

I was going to say "Joe the Plumber" told me but then you'd wonder if I was sirious. Sorry - can't help it I just saw Weekend Update Thursday.

Anyway - in all siriousness - thank you both.

I just signed up - couldn't get my name there.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text> we are doing everything we possibly can to find Maura. NORMAL!!!!!!!! do you know what its like having to go looking through debris for a relatives remains? how NORMAL!!!!! do you think our lifes have been since Maura disappeared? so much easier to say what you might do until your actually living the endless nightmare for well over 4 years.

I feel for your loss. But instead of playing the heartache card. Why not answer his questions. I mean you yourself just admitted that your way has brought you nowhere in over 4 years.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
What purpose would that serve? Would it help find Maura?

A far better purpose than you shooting down every thought from open minded thinking. Like you previously did to whitson.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
How can you be sure of that, philip? The fact is, you can't, unless you yourself know the reason for that mystery. Do you? If so, let's talk. If not, you have NO reason to make that statement, which is another of those insinuations of which I earlier spoke.

My gut is telling me that you are the only one feeling this way. What a diversionary tactic, almost sounds threatning.

Zander wrote:

<quoted text>
I feel for your loss. But instead of playing the heartache card. Why not answer his questions. I mean you yourself just admitted that your way has brought you nowhere in over 4 years.

my heartache is for Maura not myself.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
right, but my point is if it's a departmental code, such as "1234" which stand for "fine arts dept" under which I presume a gallery would fall, it might still not be enough info.
You can't tell, for instance, by looking at ANY of my paystubs what department I work for. Just that I work for X college at a certain pay grade.
Have you ever worked at a university? A department can have several locations. You can know a department, but you can't always know a physical location.

I do work for a University in fact under a state grant and when I get my W2 in at the end of the year I can show you exactly which grant I am working under, which then tells someone exactly where I've worked, which can then be tracked down by looking at a schedule as to the building I worked in and the class topics I've taught.

Hello all,

Just a wild idea:

Is it at all possible that Maura´s Saturn could have been hit by an oncoming car at the Weathered Barn curve or in its immediate vicinity, thus causing the damage to the Saturn´s front end?

The W-n family heard an acceleration followed by a thud.
Could the source of the acceleration have been a car speeding away from the scene in the direction of Woodsville (westwards), while the thud was the sound of Maura´s Saturn hitting the snowbank and coming to a stop, after having been hit by an on-coming car, causing the Saturn to swerve off the road?

What do you think?

There is a LOT people don't know or more so unwilling to NOT KNOW!

FireCat wrote:

Ben.....very thorough. Mind-bending, but thorough.
And it emphasizes for me once again just HOW MUCH WE DON'T KNOW.
Fact check--did dogs (or people, for that matter) search the bus? I know PEOPLE searched the property. Did dogs? Did ANYONE search the bus? I don't remember knowing this. Right now the only dog that comes to mind for certain in that vicinity is the air scent dog that lost her scent in the area of his driveway, 100 yards down the road from her car.

Thank You for clearing this up!

Looking4AMoose wrote:

<quoted text> I do work for a University in fact under a state grant and when I get my W2 in at the end of the year I can show you exactly which grant I am working under, which then tells someone exactly where I've worked, which can then be tracked down by looking at a schedule as to the building I worked in and the class topics I've taught.

Looking4AMoose wrote:

<quoted text> I do work for a University in fact under a state grant and when I get my W2 in at the end of the year I can show you exactly which grant I am working under, which then tells someone exactly where I've worked, which can then be tracked down by looking at a schedule as to the building I worked in and the class topics I've taught.

Ok....then your university is much differently set up than mine. You can't get all that from my paycheck. Thanks for the info, because it proves that it MIGHT be possible to get that info from her stubs. I hadn't realized that.

Eurobserver wrote:

Hello all,
Just a wild idea:
Is it at all possible that Maura´s Saturn could have been hit by an oncoming car at the Weathered Barn curve or in its immediate vicinity, thus causing the damage to the Saturn´s front end?
The W-n family heard an acceleration followed by a thud.
Could the source of the acceleration have been a car speeding away from the scene in the direction of Woodsville (westwards), while the thud was the sound of Maura´s Saturn hitting the snowbank and coming to a stop, after having been hit by an on-coming car, causing the Saturn to swerve off the road?
What do you think?

Think it could very well be possible. Head on, OR her rear-ending someone who sped off.

Eurobserver wrote:

Hello all,
Just a wild idea:
Is it at all possible that Maura´s Saturn could have been hit by an oncoming car at the Weathered Barn curve or in its immediate vicinity, thus causing the damage to the Saturn´s front end?
The W-n family heard an acceleration followed by a thud.
Could the source of the acceleration have been a car speeding away from the scene in the direction of Woodsville (westwards), while the thud was the sound of Maura´s Saturn hitting the snowbank and coming to a stop, after having been hit by an on-coming car, causing the Saturn to swerve off the road?
What do you think?

I'm not an engineer. So I'll just say what I see. But analysis I'm not confident enough to say for sure.

The damage to the front face of the car looks to be concentrated at a single point at the left, near the headlight.

It looks like the car hit the corner of something which could include the right back corner of a car - or left front corner of a car - head on.

I just took a piece of paper, folded it in half, laid it down on a flat surface lengthwise, but not hanging over the edge. I then put left my arm accross the back of the paper and pinched the right corner of the paper. I then pushed in from where I pinched. Paper is not as good of a choice as say aluminum. Try it yourself. What do you see?

Again I have NO engineering background. The most I've done is talked about materiality in accounting suggesting possible use in engineering (relying on his expertise to see it possible - of which the details escape me. Certainly not an engineering background.

I only had a friend that unfortunately - passed away - and so I can't ask him for the favor to do an analysis.

But from my conversations with him - all I can say is that engineering firm tests

*are more sophisticated then my paper test*

- math is involved and various materials have known properties that effect the calculations.

But if she hit a car - I'll have to admit (in isolation from the other facts which brings me to the opinion it was not staged) that we can't know for certain if the damage was done on purpose.

My honest and less then expert opinion, looking at the damage, is that it looks **as if** a metal cylender rod was rammed into the front of the car at high impact at the front left - not hitting the bumper.

However - some of these bumpers are made of high quality styrofoam covered by plastic/rubber that dill not maintain a dented shape.

P.S. If you want to know what joke my avatar is - I explain in the "save our nation" thread.

Looking4AMoose wrote:

<quoted text> I do work for a University in fact under a state grant and when I get my W2 in at the end of the year I can show you exactly which grant I am working under, which then tells someone exactly where I've worked, which can then be tracked down by looking at a schedule as to the building I worked in and the class topics I've taught.

I'm saying too much here - but basicly accounting packages have to be as sophisticated as he describes - to track the expense (example salaries) the grant (example Department of Education) and sometimes division within organization (College of Engineering).

However - not everybody is going to be given the codes - it all depends on the organization's policies / management approach - who does the payroll and if they have that information too.

right corner of the paper read: left corner of the paper