Where is MAURA MURRAY

quija wrote:

claysoup, if it was me who didn't answer your questions, I can tell you it was me who thought some of your posts were really good and judged 'em that way. Does that help balance out not answering Q's?
oh my, i don't know where beth lived, but i had just heard she was an absolutely wonderful person. generous, caring, strong, really cool...

She sounds really nice!!!!

Lady Gray wrote:

"Whether or not she was drinking, there was an open container in the car, so I agree with your thinking she fled from that."
Since there are so few known facts, I would like to see the alleged facts kept straight.
There was not an open container in the car. There was a damaged box of wine....damaged presumably from the accident.
There was an open bottle of cherry mountain dew with a licorce stick in the bottle, she used that as a straw.
When the car was towed, a bottle with an alcoholic smell was recovered.

There was an empty beer can in the back seat but Maura did not drink beer.(wonder how it got there) There was wine in that pop bottle and some of that wine was splattered on the dash and such. But I have often wondered about that box of wine found crushed in the back seat. Brad Garand asked us what would we most like to know if we could ask any one question. I'd like to know if someone else was in the back seat.

I agree Claysoup, the areas that Quija suggested should be forwarded to MMM for concideration.

Thank you any question for what you said. I don't know who anyone is really anymore...all the different names. I still read MMM every chance I get, I just don't say much.... when Silky died I did too and there was no way I could express my sorrow, there were no words.

just me wrote:

<quoted text>There was an empty beer can in the back seat but Maura did not drink beer.(wonder how it got there) There was wine in that pop bottle and some of that wine was splattered on the dash and such. But I have often wondered about that box of wine found crushed in the back seat. Brad Garand asked us what would we most like to know if we could ask any one question. I'd like to know if someone else was in the back seat.

It has been speculated there was wine in the bottle under the car, where is it fact? It was never said WHAT was in the bottle. Police report says it had an alcoholic odor........can it even be believed there was a bottle? The bottle could have already been there. The wine box wasn't opened. And the droplets of red matter.....re-enactment was done and if it was wine, the trail on the drops would have been elongated. The droplets appear to have a sugary gooey substance to them. I personally think someone blew out of the licorice twizzler stick and this is what the red substance is. As some say, you say potatoe, I say potatoh. No one said what the droplets consisted of. No one said WHAT was in the bottle, if there even WAS a bottle.

I'm not saying that your scenario isn't plausible, it just isn't fact.

And it being said there was a beer bottle, was there? It isn't in the report and if there was one, LE ought to have noted it in their report. But then I'm not even sure the report is accurate.

So much speculation is floating around. And it's because there just aren't many facts known.

I just don't want people to take these things for known facts. After time goes by, assumptions and speculations can dangerously turn into facts.

I meant to say in the paragraph below, that if LE noted in the police report that they saw a box of wine, why didn't they also note that there was an open container of beer? It would have given more credence to their theory of DUI........

"And it being said there was a beer bottle, was there? It isn't in the report and if there was one, LE ought to have noted it in their report. But then I'm not even sure the report is accurate."

And, again, Paris, I'm not saying these theories aren't plausible....it very well could be. But no one will ever know because LE wouldn't even let rescue approach the vehicle. LE are the only ones who know. And they aren't talking.

quija wrote:

oh my, when I read your last post, it makes sense that Maura was very vulnerable with her not functioning well (possibly) and of course her car was "crapped out". So the people you say took her had "the right" situation for that, for sure. Do you know that they really tampered with the car (rag in tailpipe)? Or drugged her somehow? Don't know if she had time to stop at a bar since it seems there was this tight timeline for her trip up there. Where do you really think they drugged her?

Well Maura bought enough liquer to make mudslides for a number of people on her way up here from what I have b een told.
If Maura went to chalet shaffer which burned in 2004 or the Bardge Inn to meet friends I was told then something went wrong very very wrong and Maura was with the wrong people I believe everyone knows who that is RIGHT!!!!
Well the killer then did what I said he did so his daughter wouldn;t get into trouble or whatever the problem was with these people and Maura, I refuse to say why in this forum b ut that was the beginning of the end and Maura knew it was I am sure and in the mean time a couple of people were called in to keep the problem from escalating(Maura)=Problem at this point! Everyone knows who the bad man is if you live in Haverhill I am told he wears a mob ring and his name is Gary I am told ok,,Gary's Fools they call them up in that town!
The Daughter I am told is a big Coke dealer the same as her MOM and DAD and her siblings and her name is Cheryl and some people up there are actually scared of these creeps or FOOLS... lmao
Well after that phone call was made then Gary's right hand man Claude came up with a woman to assist getting rid of Maura=problem for the fools as Maura might have seen something that could have hurt the Coke buisness or maybe she whitnessed a murder orf some shit so Claude was ordered to get rid of her permatley and I will say trhis is my opinion for the people who come in here and tell me off and are the murders in my opinion or know them and are trying protect them..If you add 1 and 1 you get about 39 people in Haverhill okie dokie!!!!!!
Now Gary is trying to sell ev erything he has right now to get out of the town and the Police's eye ok. Then you have the Mother who is used to livingf with nose candy in high gear with the straw glued in her nose and everyone in town knows all about the deal here but not many know which person is carrying the loads of drugs (narcotics)Coke ect. just stop at Garys n get some or get a load of the shit or ask cheryl ot about 39 others in town and everyone in town l AM TOLD IS SICK OF THese Fools and have given lots of messages back to them to stop it..ednough for now and like I say this is an opinion of mine ok not a fact ok!!!!!!!!!!

Fred said there was a beer can, not me. I never said there was a beer bottle. Why can't I just talk? I'm not saying the facts are in when I converse here, but I am aware of what went on to an extent. Don't you remember all the long talks? Do you think I am being misleading? Lady Gray, I am here to help too and appreciate being asked to clarify. Police don't seem to want to say DUI or DWI because then they'd really be "liable?" for not going all out that night "looking for the girl that seemed intoxicated".......they'r e downplaying that. And I actually do too, I doubt Maura was wallowing in some sort of poor me while driving. No, I don't believe that for 10 seconds.

Again, it was just too staged looking to me, the way Maura's car was found with wine splashed around. Mcsmom,... help, lol. And good point about EMTs not allowed up close. I should ask again, could a rag in the tailpipe be a code of sorts? Could it stand for something? Because Mr. Smith sure was shook up about that part. The rag was down low, maybe even hard to see let alone get to in that snowbank. And yet he rushes so concerned to the one house.....only to leave this part out as he's looking into the eyes of Maura's loved ones///////oh no, he thought Fred was there or something, never mind the BOL for a shorter Maura....why won't they communicate factually and honestly??????????

OH MY wrote:

<quoted text>
It seems the information I have been collecting is true as you and a few others are changing your names to keep from being recognized, so I am doing my JOB!!!! lmao
I will have you murders in jail as soon as I get the little amount of information I need so strap in hang on tight as I get the jail ready for you!!! HAHAHAHAHA

You are Lucky you don't have my name to put out there when making your accusations like this. Because I am one who would make sure you pay to the fullest extent, especially after you had so much warning.

OH MY wrote:

Now back to the topix and that is that we all need to put our 2 cents together and we might get more information,,like why Maura was taken!
In my opinion she saw things that someone didn't expect her to see and then they drugged her and then stuffed a rag in the tailpipe to stop her car from running and when that didn't work they pitted her car into snowbanks untill the drug took effect then they took her and left another woman to pretend they were her to throw everyone off.
The bus driver wanted to call in HPD and that woman said oh no please don't and when he did she with her lit cigarrette left the scene leaving Maura's car behind and because of the poor police work they contaminated the crime scene.
In my opinion they then kept her alive for some time until the heat from the SP got to the point they were scared they killed her!
One other scenario is that Floyds son has her under that foundation that he put in in 2004..
Now thats brainstorming with good intent

Did I miss something? I am only asking(seriously).
You said "with her lit cigerette". Now, where did this come from? I am not asking your "opinion" as you like to give so freely. I am stating; was this on record? Someone stating she had a lit cigerette? If so, this may be a solid direction to move. Because (I may be wrong) but most atheletes, especially runners. Will have nothing to do with cigerettes. And everything I have read says she was a strong runner.

Lady Gray wrote:

<quoted text>
I just don't want people to take these things for known facts. After time goes by, assumptions and speculations can dangerously turn into facts.

I really do agree with you and I hope to always correct and/or change as I go so please do ask me when it seems I am not accurate. I just had to come back and say that. I have a hard time expressing myself sometimes, I get defensive. No matter what though, you are right.

Maura did not smoke, she detested smoke and would likely never allow smoking in her car....
A witness saw a man at the car. That witness saw a man at the car ///smoking a cigarette///

For some reason it was all dismissed.

Bonjour, mon ami Paris. Fred mentions in his letter to Lynch there was a beer bottle found in the car.
A man smoking a cigarette was what was reported in the 911 call by Mrs. Westman.

Ah, bonjoir mon ami.....mcsmom, it's so good to see you. I know you keep very good notes and again, I'm so glad to see you.
I never did understand how they/police could dismiss the man at the car statement. That person, Mrs. W-man saw 'Maura' too but they leave that part out by arguing over a cigarette or not. They say it was the cell phone charger light even though the car was facing them and they wouldn't be able to see the dash from that perspective. It still remains that a witness saw a man, cigarette or not, n'est pas?. I am not French by the way, je parle francaise but why I called myself Paris I'll never know.

Lady Gray wrote:

I meant to say in the paragraph below, that if LE noted in the police report that they saw a box of wine, why didn't they also note that there was an open container of beer? It would have given more credence to their theory of DUI........
"And it being said there was a beer bottle, was there? It isn't in the report and if there was one, LE ought to have noted it in their report. But then I'm not even sure the report is accurate."
And, again, Paris, I'm not saying these theories aren't plausible....it very well could be. But no one will ever know because LE wouldn't even let rescue approach the vehicle. LE are the only ones who know. And they aren't talking.

I'm confused. If no one was in the car or found hurt outside the car then why would rescue leave their vehicle and approach a car in the dark and on a sharp corner? For what reason would they approach an empty car. I must be missing something.
If no victim of an accident is found there isn't much that rescue can do and usually they are cancelled before they even get to the scene.

One time on the the MM site I was asking about the person that said Maura had asked for them to call AAA for her,~ and that was just prior to the Saturn getting "stuck" by the weathered barn. I seemed to be the only other person who saw that, heaven only knows where. Well, Helena said Linda, I read that too and cannot find it anywhere now. Did anyone else see this?

Wowzer wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm confused. If no one was in the car or found hurt outside the car then why would rescue leave their vehicle and approach a car in the dark and on a sharp corner? For what reason would they approach an empty car. I must be missing something.
If no victim of an accident is found there isn't much that rescue can do and usually they are cancelled before they even get to the scene.

The main thing I think is the implication that it may have already been determined a crime scene from the start and EMT not allowed near......

The light was on that night down at the weathered barn and you could see somewhat/depending from the moon once your eyes adjust. But those vehicles had their lights on too, you bet and the flashers were also going. That "hairpin" turn is really not that bad and people gathered round, towed the car, etc. The CW says he didn't notice anything, why.... Two days later, he's finally questioned, he still says, nope, nothing, sleeping, was at home, was driving home.......didn't notice any 'accident' commotion. But to answer your question it was odd that they would not let EMT near the "crime scene"

The following will probably get more laughs than serious consideration, but I’ll throw it out there anyway.

I think it’s possible that Maura’s disappearance, assuming it was an abduction, is related to her jogging on Mullins Way at UMass. Mullins Way forms part of a loupe that is very popular with area runners and it’s close to the dorm in which Maura roomed, so it’s likely Maura would have run there. On the west side of Mullins Way is the UMass water treatment plant. Chemicals used to treat drinking water are regularly delivered there.

This would be a useless observation except that a similar factor exists in the cases of Molly Bish, Tina and Bethany Sinclair, and Lindsey Ferguson. There are well fields along the east side of Comins Pond in Warren, MA; behind the movie theatre where Tina and Bethany Sinclair were last seen (unless it was the Latchis Theatre); and near the high school parking lot (apparently part of the high school cross country course) where the abduction of Lindsey Ferguson was attempted. I think the water is treated on location at two of these well fields, maybe all three.

What make this a little more interesting is that John Regan, who was convicted of attempting to abduct Lindsey Ferguson from the parking lot at Saratoga Springs High School (10/31/2005), lived very close to a place where these chemicals are manufactured. The chemical company – I’ll call it CUC – had its roots in Warren, MA. CUC, which also manufactured Agent Orange, is located in a town unique for its many examples of architecture designed by McKim, Mead, and White (MMW). John Regan’s attorney was on the payroll, indirectly, of the owners of CUC. Regan effectively kept his mouth shut about the details of the attempted abduction by inexplicably pleading guilty to a charge any first year law school student could have defended him against.

Architect William Rutherford Mead, partner in MMW, was from Brattleboro, as was another famous architect, William Morris Hunt. Mead attended Amherst College, his firm designed a building on the AC campus, and the AC art museum is named after him. Mead’s two partners in MMW both previously worked for Henry Hobson Richardson, who designed many well known buildings related to the railroad industry, including the train station in Palmer, not far from where Molly Bish’s remains were found, and who apprenticed under Russell Sturgis, whose partner, Charles Amos Cummings, designed the Warren Public Library, directly across from the end of Comins Pond Road. The Warren Public Library and the Amherst Town Hall, designed by H.S. McKay, are examples of the Romanesque style made famous by Richardson, a style also practiced by Nathan J. Bradlee, who designed the famous train station in North Conway, NH, not far from where Louise Chaput was killed in Jackson. Stanford White of MMW also designed a private home in Jackson.

The attacks against five of these six women (not including Maura) are known to have occurred near a railroad track that runs beside a river, all at elevations of about 400-500 feet. Many of the attacks occurred near spots popular with railfans. No group of people knows railroad history better than model railroaders. At least two of the attacks occurred near model railroad stores, including one that also sells swimming pool supplies. There is another railroad hobby store not too far from where Maura’s car was found. The New York Central Railroad originally followed what was known as the water level route. Mostly, it was a route from New York City north to Albany and then west along the Erie Canal, but it is also regarded as including much of the track in New England, too. If the water level route has an origin, it’s at Grand Central Terminal in New York. On the main, 42nd Street side of the Terminal is a statue featuring Minerva, Hermes, and Mercury above a clock. Hermes is the god in the center, the tallest and most prominent one.

[The following snippets, all within one pair of double quotation marks, are taken from Wikipedia, not always the most elegant or trustworthy source, but it will do for now.]

“Hermes protects and takes care of all the travelers and thieves that pray to him or cross his path. He is athletic and is always looking out for runners, or any athletes with injuries who need his help.

Hermes is a messenger from the gods to humans, sharing this role with Iris. An interpreter who bridges the boundaries with strangers is a hermeneus. Hermes gives us our word "hermeneutics" for the art of interpreting hidden meaning. In Greek a lucky find was a hermaion. Hermes delivered messages from Olympus to the mortal world. He wears shoes with wings on them and uses them to fly freely between the mortal and immortal world. Hermes, younger than Apollo, was the youngest of the Olympian gods.

Hermes was believed to have invented many types of racing and…was a patron of athletes.

According to prominent folklorist Meletinskii, Hermes is a deified trickster. Hermes also served as a psychopomp, or an escort for the dead to help them find their way to the afterlife (the Underworld in the Greek myths). Along with escorting the dead, Hermes often helped travelers have a safe and easy journey.”

In Homer’s Odyssey, Hermes protects Odysseus with an herb called Moly.

I believe it’s very possible that at least one of the two donations which comprise the $100,000 Molly Bish Reward Fund actually originated with The American Financial Group, which insures CUC against the cost of settling litigation against them. CUC has been up to its eyeballs in litigation over Agent Orange for years. The last thing their insurance company wants is for someone within CUC to be arrested and convicted for being a serial killer… and maybe much more.

At the risk of getting laughed at even harder, I’ll add that the environmental factors cited above and many more like them can also be associated with the 2001 anthrax attack. The anthrax used in the attack is known to have been made with water originating in New England. CUC had the scientific facilities and knowhow. One or more of CUC’s owners may have had the means, motivation, and opportunity. He has close ties to Amherst MA. The victims (or intended victims) Tom Brokaw, Ottilie Lundgren, and Kathy Nguyen all lived or swam near a place where railroad tracks run beside a river and crosses that river near architecturally admired train stations and covered bridges. Ottilie Lundgren swam at a YMCA located very close to CUC. Two other intended victims, former Senator Tom Daschle and Senator Patrick Leahy, are or were both swimmers. MMW designed many of the federal office buildings in Washington, DC. Tom Brokaw and his wife Meredith call Yankton, South Dakota their hometown. They met at the Yankton High School swimming pool. A camera view of the rooftop swimming pool at Rockefeller Center was featured in the introduction to NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw for many years. Maura Murray’s uncle taught at Yankton High School for many years, although probably after the Brokaws had graduated. Architects who trained with MMW designed both the hospital where Kathy Nguyen worked and the New York Athletic Club.

There is at least one person with military combat training who has worked for an Amherst area athletic club, for CUC, and was a student at UMass. There is a distinct possibility that she also works for, with, and/or as a private investigator associated with two of the cases of presumably abducted women mentioned above.

There are many other similar associations between the victims and both the locations at which they were attacked and the dates on which they were attacked – far too many associations to be dismissed as mere coincidence or a nutty conspiracy theory without the benefit of a control group. Of the many external factors these six victims have in common, many will obviously be unrelated, but it is irresponsible to simply say that, absent a good comparison, there is no meaningful association at all between the victims and their environments. A more statistically based, scientific approach should be used to determine the possible relevance of these many external factors.

If there is a meaningful association between the victims and their environments, then (because John Regan was convicted) a group of two or more serial killers must be considered a distinct possibility. If Maura Murray can be included in this group of six, then a lot more might be discovered about what happened to her, what happened to the other victims, and why it happened. It’s not just Maura’s case that remains a mystery - another four or five cases also remain unexplained.

Okay, now that my credibility is in ruins, I’ll leave quietly for my home planet.