Where is MAURA MURRAY

whiston wrote:

She had alot of problems in her life from her early years.

Whaaaaat? I've NEVER heard anything of that sort even insinuated, and I'm not sure how you even come up with that theory. Especially since you keep pointing out how little we know about her prior life.

What on earth made you come to that outrageous conclusion??

looking4amoose wrote:

<quoted text>OK--so the first week of clinicals there was bad weather. I was of the belief that she had been staying in Norwood because of the distance of the clinical and not because of bad weather. Is it known what day she returned the clothing and to whom it was returned? Was the person also a student at UMass Amherst?(approximately a 2 hour commute)

This? No idea. Sorry.

mcsmom wrote:

firecat...this is what I understood from peabody back in the earliest days of the forum:
Peabody wrote:
She also called her friend late morning of 2/9/04 and left a message that she would not be needing a ride to nursing clinicals "for the rest of the week" and that the borrowed nursing jacket had been returned and laid on her (the friend's) bed in case she needed it "while I am gone". This information was also gathered by UMass Police and later confirmed by the family when they received her cell phone records.(This was a supporting bit of info by the NH SP for the suicide theory: suicidal people often return or give away things to people - yet they did not know this when they first mentioned suicide to the family on the evening of 2/11)

Thanks. I wasn't there in the earliest days. Perhaps it then changed and was corrected that it was street clothes? Or perhaps, like lots of other information, it got garbled and confused, and they were scrubs.

::scratches head::

But any direct reference is ALWAYS helpful. Thanks.

hi firecat and all .its not a theory.enough said on that for now.Whitewash,were the photos of the tire tracks taken that night or later.i am assuming if a flash was used the neighbours would have seen it.i agree that LE did more to examine the saturn than they have said.If photographs were taken that night i have to wonder why.Is it normal for a car that is suspected of being abandoned by a drunk driver to be photographed in N.H .Were the tire tracks photographed after the car was towed to Lavoies and why .I am still stuck with the saturn being at the weathered barn curve with sgt Smiths vehicle 15 minutes before the Westmans called 911..take care philip

Re: whiston's post.... I hate to speak for others (sure), but I think some of us have gotten the impression that Maura put pressure on herself to achieve, to do well, to be the best she could. I mean, to be accepted at West Point! To set a high school record! Nope, I never met her. Altho I wish I had; I'd've liked to hike all day with her. Philip, I'm not putting words in your mouth (yes, I am!), but it's been easy for us to edge toward thinking Maura was a perfectionist from early on -- due to her intelligence -- and that she was stressed out from that.

Like whiston, who has Amherst questions that haven't been answered completely, my main question right now is:

IS IT A FACT THAT MAURA'S DISAPPEARANCE IS CONSIDERED A HOMICIDE?

Or, was the Major Crimes Unit - Homicide - called in to her case due to pressure or a standstill?

Weeper has said that homicide is the PI's consensus.

IMO we need to know this. IF IT WAS A RANDOM OR OPPORTUNISTIC CRIME BY SOMEONE NOT IN MAURA'S "BEFORE" LIFE.... then what we discuss here is fruitless (never used that word before). In that case it's up to LE or word of mouth through locals. How could we "solve" the case from a distance, not knowing the local criminals?

If it's less than 100% certain that Maura met with foul play, then it's still important to explore everything as we've been doing now for almost five years.

I keep feeling we don't need evidence --- we just need someone to tell us that THERE IS definite evidence of foul play. And I have no idea who could do this or if there's any acceptable way for them to do it.

Like I mentioned before, I liked that MMM poster's idea to create a list of WHO HAD A REASON TO LIE in Maura's disappearance. Since that's pretty provocative, I thought I'd just start with a few of the dozens of people who were related to Maura's life and disappearance. I'll start with some who had NO REASON to purposefully lie:

Kurt, Maura's younger brother knew she was angry about something and wrote a powerful poem/song asking why... what had they done to make her leave?

Anne, who heard a transmission about a 7PM accident that Monday night 2/9, had no reason to lie. She even had a memory device for that night: a friend on the road at that time who she was worried about.

Robinsordway, who was walking to the store on 112 from her house, had no reason to lie. She described the red pickup truck driving strangely... slowing down to look at her, pulling in and turning around to head back toward the weathered barn.... she also noted that (don't remember his officer's rank) Monaghan pulled up as she walked, looked at her, and said, "Oh, it's you", since they knew each other. She was able to report that the weather/temp/wind that evening was not bad at all or else she would not have walked.

To be continued... hopefully by all of us.... if you think it's a good idea...

Well the wine box was in plain view!
TW searched their property with LE/Fire.
Fire/Rescue also did a search of the area.
My personal feeling is LE felt they had a DWI.
Once the car was removed and the bottle was
found LE had what they required for a search warrant.
People did search the area despite the lack of
prints.

Quija wrote:

Whitewash, thanks for this reminder re the Saturn:
"... the car was impounded it was in a locked secured area that night!
At 11 PM a search warrant was obtain by HPD.
At appox. 9 AM a search was granted.
At appox 11 AM (I believe) HPD performed a
search.
Evidence has been logged.
There is an inventory list.
So not sure how people can say the chain of evidence wasn't kept?..."
It was in the Sheriff's Log that LE requested a search warrant and they began the search at 11AM Tuesday; many of us had the image of the Saturn sitting outside at LaVoie's unattended. Maybe we can give LE credit for securing the Saturn (crime scene --- if it is one), quickly getting a search warrant and presumably getting all needed samples for testing the next morning.(I think this was done by officers other than Smith, since he had worked a late shift Monday night.) That's pretty efficient for a disabled car! I wonder what Cecil Smith saw inside the car? What made him keep other responders keep at a distance? Of course, it might've been the red liquid splashed around and Cecil Smith wasn't taking any chances... it might've been blood. To me, with no personal LE knowledge, what was done this first night seems like the right stuff. I was going to suggest that maybe a bit more driving up and down the road to look for the possibly injured driver would've been called for, but then Smith and Atwood DID drive around looking for her...

Whiston the photographs where taken that night.
Wonder no more it is HPD standard to photograph
accidents where possible. They always have.
As much is it is a policy for Fire to be called
out for any accident.
I think when any crime occurs LE take as many
photographs as possible.
I personally do not believe HPD was there 15 mins
before the FW called.
I think you need to remember you have several sources of information being lumped together.
For me I do not believe someone could leave Cottage Hospital in FEB punch out warm a car
and being at the Westmans by 7:15.
For me the Sgt. Smith passed his Boss on the way
to the call so I have to go with someone trained
to note times.
For me this is a HUGE PUZZLE and you have to use what fits.

whiston wrote:

hi firecat and all .its not a theory.enough said on that for now.Whitewash,were the photos of the tire tracks taken that night or later.i am assuming if a flash was used the neighbours would have seen it.i agree that LE did more to examine the saturn than they have said.If photographs were taken that night i have to wonder why.Is it normal for a car that is suspected of being abandoned by a drunk driver to be photographed in N.H .Were the tire tracks photographed after the car was towed to Lavoies and why .I am still stuck with the saturn being at the weathered barn curve with sgt Smiths vehicle 15 minutes before the Westmans called 911..take care philip

white wash.....if we are to believe the airbags deployed that night at the point of impact (which you ascertain and claim to have witnessed this evidence) happened at the Weathered Barn curve....how is it possible that the tire track pattern so defined in the accident report per CS, shows the tires turning post crash to head the vehicle facing in the westerly direction.
Consider this:
The impact of an airbag during deployment forces the drivers hands away from the steering wheel, making steering impossible by the driver.
Airbag sensors and accompanied wheel antilock brakes and traction would have prevented the car from maneuvering to this degree as diagrammed.

mcsmom wrote:

white wash.....if we are to believe the airbags deployed that night at the point of impact (which you ascertain and claim to have witnessed this evidence) happened at the Weathered Barn curve....how is it possible that the tire track pattern so defined in the accident report per CS, shows the tires turning post crash to head the vehicle facing in the westerly direction.
Consider this:
The impact of an airbag during deployment forces the drivers hands away from the steering wheel, making steering impossible by the driver.
Airbag sensors and accompanied wheel antilock brakes and traction would have prevented the car from maneuvering to this degree as diagrammed.

Mcsmom, I believe you are misinterpreting what you are looking at. Those marks are called an incidence of reflection. She didn’t steer anywhere except into the tree. The angle of approach to the tree(s) is shown by the skid marks. Brakes locked. Contact is made with the trees and the rear end of the vehicle swings around. Contact with the tree is broken and the vehicle now skids (backwards) again leaving the marks you see. She didn’t steer after contact with the tree. The tires were locked up from before impact and she never took her foot off of the brake until the car stopped moving. Only physics was involved.

After reading what I think is your interpretation of the skids I now wonder if that is why so many people have a problem with that diagram. It looks just like many accidents I have seen and follows the laws of physics’ perfectly.

Bill

Addendum: Not the Bill from the MMM site. I read for years but never posted, not once under this name.

peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote:

<quoted text>
I know that the RCMP would have issued a BOL immediately and not to the fire department.
As stated in Canada we have the right to call for a public enquiry when we are not satisfied with the preformance of the police...

Any chance we might find out from the Canadian border patrol if she crossed the border?

Detective Columbo wrote:

OH MY....I am registered at MM site. You can talk to me by Ptivate Msg. there. I am a PI working the case, you can check with the Family on my ID.
Take Care.....speak to You soon I hope....Columbo

I want to know why the carpet from the aframe never got any results? That looks like a solid lead. What is the scoop?

The only thing I stated I have witness are
photographs in a file taken that night
when I interviewed HPD!
Where and How you arrive at some of your thoughts
just make me LOL!
I do believe you have received a much better answer to your question that I would have given!

mcsmom wrote:

white wash.....if we are to believe the airbags deployed that night at the point of impact (which you ascertain and claim to have witnessed this evidence) happened at the Weathered Barn curve....how is it possible that the tire track pattern so defined in the accident report per CS, shows the tires turning post crash to head the vehicle facing in the westerly direction.
Consider this:
The impact of an airbag during deployment forces the drivers hands away from the steering wheel, making steering impossible by the driver.
Airbag sensors and accompanied wheel antilock brakes and traction would have prevented the car from maneuvering to this degree as diagrammed.

The PI's lost theirs!

LE supposedly ran DNA on a pair of panties Maura's Sister found on French Pond.

If indeed the carpet made it to LE as stated
then for me I personally and comfortable knowing
it was tested.

We know that LE did in deed search a form neighbors mobile home.

We know the knife has been turned over to LE

Cathy wrote:

<quoted text> I want to know why the carpet from the aframe never got any results? That looks like a solid lead. What is the scoop?

Part 1
Greetings to all.
According to the Accident Report, Sgt CW did not come up with a name for the person that, according to the SBD , was behind the wheel of the Saturn until the police executed the search warrant for the car. When did the police search the car? I believe I recall reading somewhere that they searched it sometime late Monday night, or early Tuesday morning. Meanwhile, they did not attempt to contact Maura’s father until Tuesday afternoon, which I find rather odd for the following reasons.
1. Sgt CW found the Saturn locked and apparently abandoned. After peering through the windows to check-out what was in plain view, he talked to the SBD and possibly the Ws, because callers from both residences called 911 regarding the Saturn. The Ws reported that they heard a car accelerating (probably the Saturn accelerating in reverse), then a loud thump (probably caused by the rear end of the Saturn impacting a snow bank beside the road); looked out window and saw the Saturn in the snow-bank; and called 911 (call received at. 7:27 pm). They also saw the SBD stop at the scene and talk to a young woman who got out of the Saturn. Apparently, they later reported the conversation between the SBD and the woman took place at 7:34 pm. They had an unobstructed view of the scene and did not see any other vehicles.
2. The SBD told Sgt CW that he stopped at the scene of the accident about 7:34 pm. He saw a female driver, dark hair down, deployed airbag; she said she was not hurt; she said she had called AAA; she got out of car and looked over it ….. he drove home, parked bus, went inside and told wife, mother; tried 3 times to call 911 unsuccessfully (out on porch where he has scanner); finally reached police and called them out; during time he was on phone on porch, saw several cars go by but could not tell make/model, even though there is a bright street lamp located at the end of his driveway.
3. At this point in his investigation, the only information he has from which he could determine the owner of the Saturn is the VIN number, which I assume was located on top of the instrument panel and visible from outside the vehicle, and the license plate number. He could and probably did radio that information to dispatch and dispatch radioed him back with the name and address of the registered owner, whom we know to be Maura’s father.
4. Police did not speak to Mr. Murray until the following afternoon.
Therefore, am I correct in concluding that Sgt CW did not know the identity of the driver, or if she had the owner’s permission to drive it when he issued the BOLO? That is, the only information he had about the driver was provided by the SBD. For all he knew, she might have been a car thief, correct? And, as Weeper pointed out, it seems odd that Sgt CW so badly misinterpreted the evidence at the scene when he described it in his report. I am having difficulty understanding why his initial take wasn’t “possible stolen vehicle located on the E/B shoulder of Route 112 backed into a snowbank facing W/B direction; probable staged accident; suspect driver fled the scene of the accident; whereabouts unknown; suspect described as a white female, early twenties, with long dark hair, and dressed in dark clothing.”
Anyone know why the police did not attempt to contact the registered owner on Monday night to find out if he could identify this female suspect, and if he would consent to allow the police to search the car? Seems to me that’s what any police Sgt would do, if presented with this set of facts.
I wish I could obtain a copy of the Affidavit for Search Warrant to search the car to see what information was supplied to convince the judge that probable cause existed to believe that the Saturn contained evidence of a specific crime. What crime, or crimes I wonder?

Part 2
Assuming the hospital worker was telling the truth, s/he rules out the possibility that the female driving the Saturn walked away from the scene of the accident in either direction because s/he approached the scene on the 112 from the convenience store located near the intersection of Goose Lane and the 112 and continue E/B on the 112 past the Bradley Hill Road intersection. I don’t know how far down the 112 s/he went, but it was probably farther than the female could have walked or run. S/he would have seen the female walking along the road unless she turned right on Bradley Hill Road and headed toward Benton.

Another possible route would be Old Pete’s Road, but I can’t determine if it connects to any other road from looking at Google.

Although we cannot exclude the possibility that the female headed off into the woods, I believe it’s unlikely. This leads me back to the mysterious red pick-up with Massachusetts plates. Witness RO saw it head E/B on the 112 out of the convenience store parking lot toward the Weathered Barn a few minutes before she saw Sgt Smith drive by the store headed in the same direction, apparently responding to the Ws call about the Saturn.

If the Saturn passed by RO before the red pickup left the parking lot, she didn’t notice it. She walked E/B along the 112 from the Bunga intersection to the convenience store.

Did the driver of the red pickup see the female walking beside the road and offer her a lift? It would have arrived at the scene a few minutes before Sgt CW arrived. Voila! Opportunity and Means satisfied. A motive is needed to complete the trifecta.

The driver of that truck is my “person of interest” that I’d like to interview, if I were investigating this case.

One last point: There is a gas station on the right of the 302 just across the bridge in Woodsville as you head E/B. I wonder if anyone checked there to see if Maura might have stopped to fill the tank? If so, would anyone want to bet the ranch against a red pickup being in the vicinity? Specifically, a red pickup with MA plates containing two occupants, a male and a female with long dark hair.

More later.

WTF if I took photos of the car standing then
photos kneeing what do you think would happen?

Is there still an ongoing active investigation by anyone? LE? PI? or is this truly a cold case now?

hi White Wash and all.You say you have seen the photos taken of the tire marks that night.As you know there are tracks noted by sgt Smith on the accident report.Do you know if the photos you saw were at the blue ribobn tree,closer towards the weathered barnor actually where the car was found which was closer to Bradley hill road .Are there even trees in front of where the saturn was actually found.Thanks for the earlier info about NHPD and taking pictures take care philip