Where is MAURA MURRAY

WHITE WASH wrote:

There just is not the chit chat on this case like the others.

By whom? And what could that lack of chit chat indicate??

Been reading about this case for about 2 weeks now. So ill give a somewhat "fresh" opinion/ideas. The dogs lose the scent of muara on 112 around SBD's house correct? I thought I read somewhere that the person who said they seen her running some 4 or 5 miles away also liked around the area the dogs lost the scent. I have also read that he had/has toys in his yard, but no children live with him. So is it possible that she refused help from SBD since he doesnt look very "friendy" but maybe went to the other house for help...then 4 months later this guy says he seen her running away to maybe divert attention to his area?

meant to say he lived around the area that the dogs lost the scent

Maura was at West Point for one and one half years according to Sharon.-
"Before Maura’s disappearance, she also excelled in academics. In 2000, she graduated
fourth in her high school class. She scored 1420 out of 1600 on her college SAT
entrance exam, and was accepted as a cadet at the United States Military Academy at
West Point. Maura spent 1 ½ years at West Point majoring in Chemical Engineering
before she transferred to the University of Massachusetts at Amherst to pursue a major
in Nursing. At both West Point and U Mass, Maura excelled in the class room and on
the cross country courses and track fields. She was on the Dean’s List each semester
until her disappearance."
http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/KellyJolkow...

Below is the military training done at West Point:
The West Point Experience
Cadet Development: Military

Cadet life is immersed in a military environment that is unique to West Point. The Corps of Cadets is organized as a "brigade" under the command of a Commandant of Cadets. The commandant is a brigadier general in the U.S. Army. There is both an officer and a cadet "chain of command," providing many opportunities to practice and develop personal leadership skills.

The bulk of "hands-on" military training occurs during the summer. Freshmen, or "plebes," begin their West Point experience with Cadet Basic Training. This six-week program of instruction focuses on basic soldier skills and courtesies, discipline, personal appearance, military drill and ceremonies, and physical fitness. Extensive demands are made on new cadets as a test of their emotional stability, perseverance, and ability to organize and perform under stress.

Sophomores, or "yearlings," begin Cadet Field Training in June at nearby Camp Buckner on the West Point Military reservation. They have had a few weeks of leave following the completion of academics. Cadet Field Training consists of nearly eight weeks of rigorous military training that emphasizes crew/squad and platoon level soldier skills. Various weapons are fired for familiarization and a week is spent at Fort Knox, Kentucky to become acquainted with armor and mechanized infantry operations and equipment.

During the third summer at West Point cadets spend time all over the world, attending specialty training such as Air Assault Training and Mountain Warfare Training. They may be assigned to regular Army units at home and abroad to gain valuable leadership experience in positions of responsibility.

Some juniors or "cows," as they are known, take an active part in the training of the freshmen and sophomores at Cadet Basic Training and at Cadet Field Training.

Seniors, or "firsties," assume leadership of the Corps during both Cadet Basic Training and Cadet Field Training.
http://admissions.usma.edu/prospectus/wpe_mil...

White Wash....

What evidence do you have or know about that indicates that Maura committed a crime. We don't even know for sure if the person in the Saturn WAS MAURA. LE really didn't even have a clue who was driving that night, Cecil Smith said he didn't know there was a girl driving the vehicle the next day...That is BULL, he had this info that night after talking to the witnesses to the acc. Could you explain that one for us.

Eurobserver wrote:

Hello all,
Just two points here:
1. Let´s not forget that Maura, whatever her state of mind at the time, was a highly trained West Point cadet, well versed in military self-defence techniques. Definitely not the "girl-next-door" kind of young lady and most certainly not an "easy" victim for an evil perp.

Does 1 & 1/2 years really make one "highly trained" and able to defend themselves in a situation like this where she possibly had a head injury or was otherwise impaired?

Eurobserver wrote:

Hello all,
Just two points here:
1. Let´s not forget that Maura, whatever her state of mind at the time, was a highly trained West Point cadet, well versed in military self-defence techniques.
Definitely not the "girl-next-door" kind of young lady and most certainly not an "easy" victim for an evil perp.
2. The tracker dogs apparently lost Maura´s scent at the corner of Rte 112 and Bradley Hill Road by the SBD house.
The most likely scenario, IMHO, would be that Maura probably got into a passing car at that point, most likely willingly.
As far as can be ascertained from studying Google Maps, etc, there are several houses in the immediate neighbourhood of the Rte 112/Bradley Hill Road corner and thus this particular spot would seem like an unlikely place for an abduction attempt.

Yes, what Eurobserver said. So, where does that leave us? Do these passerby's then abduct her, does she reach her intended destination, which was probably Bartlett NH based on a combination of her direction and the places she was looking into as possible get-away's. I agree, so what's next?

Eurobserver wrote:

Let´s not forget that Maura, whatever her state of mind at the time, was a highly trained West Point cadet, well versed in military self-defence techniques.

Whatever Muara was she was not a highly trained West Point cadet. She got through beast which is just an initiation. I understand that many people who hear about beast think that is the hardest thing they have ever heard of but that is just an initiation. She didn’t even make it to plebe summer as far as I know because I don’t think she made it into her sophomore year. This is not to belittle Maura. There is a tendency for people who have no experience with the military to think that she was some kind of highly trained military individual. Certainly she was physically fit and mentally sharp this she was not trained as an actual combatant. Those who are know the military know that her training was not of any significance, certainly to the point she was at. It is actually belittling to the people who have gone through all the training at West Point or are actual trained combatants to consider Maura highly trained.

I keep hearing this repeated over and over so I would like to set the record straight in this respect. Like I said I am sure she was very capable mentally and physically but having known and trained West point cadets and worked closely with OCS candidates as well as having gone through PNOC school and other military combat training and being a combat trained sergeant in an infantry battalion I have some familiarity with the training the West Pointers received and what actual combat trained personal go through.

Even graduates of the academy are NOT considered highly trained military personnel. And you may just have to take it on faith that even the officers that graduate are not considered highly trained military personnel. They are trained primarily as managers. The day to day workings of any combat platoon is left to the sergeants. In general (in broad brush terms) officers look at strategy and NCO’s look at combat tactics. That doesn’t mean they don’t participate in the missions but most of the smart ones listen very carefully to what the NCO has to say. There is no way their 4 years of college (partly spent learning accounting, algebra, and physics, etc.) is any way a substitute for the 10 to 20 years combat training and experience of the platoon/squad or even the fire team sergeant. Most of the smarter second lieutenants I have met knew this and understood their role.

Bill

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>I lean toward abduction...

Many think that abduction is a possibility but from where? The accident site? Did she flee the site to be abducted elsewhere? Considering a person in a car CAN move more than a mile a minute was she abducted an hour later possibly putting her 60+ miles from the accident scene? Maybe a day later or week? How far away would that put her? The area that has to be looked at starts getting very large even if she “walks away” at a 3 mile an hour pace and she gets to walk for 2 hours.

Bill

WTF-the-original & all,

Thanks for the clarifications regarding Maura´s military training.

Even so and even allowing for the shock effects of the car accident(s) and for Maura possibly being somewhat inebriated at the time, I would say that she certainly would have been a lot fitter and better able to defend herself than most other 21-year-old young ladies.

WHITE WASH wrote:

She didn't sleep well so I'm not going with the pass out theory and back to
the military training. You can leave
West Point but West Point never leaves
you!
Second I believe one person.
Two people or more someone always
gets pissed off and sends them up the
river.
There just is not the chit chat on this case like the others.
What did TM threw SBD under the bus?
What's the beef there? TM watches from
his window never comes outside?
Never contacts HPD they went to him.
Neighbors up until a 2 years later
believed he wasn't home.
<quoted text>

odd that TM would watch from window and never go out after LE showed up to see what was going on.

Eurobserver wrote:

WTF-the-original & all,
Thanks for the clarifications regarding Maura´s military training.
Even so and even allowing for the shock effects of the car accident(s) and for Maura possibly being somewhat inebriated at the time, I would say that she certainly would have been a lot fitter and better able to defend herself than most other 21-year-old young ladies.

No dispute. I will tell you though that people that never had a fight, and that probably is most people have no idea how to do it. I will also tell that you that anyone who knows how to fight would always want to be able to get the first shot in. The person who strikes first will almost always, always win, regardless of other factors. Usually that will be the perp because he does it often and knows about this outcome. As someone who in his younger days had more fights than he wants to admit. Being afraid to strike first, even when recognizing the threat, can get anyone compromised. Weather they know how to handle themselves or not. I.e. I may have a gun and a knife and if I am comfortable enough to let someone walk in back of me, I’m screwed. Most people, myself included, won’t strongly object and many times won’t even watch a person walking behind them if it seems reasonable in the situation. To do so would be considered paranoid. Of course if you have ever been attacked from behind and survived you would probably consider watching them prudent.

Bill

The world is a funny place but if that is the case why is it people rarely laugh about it?

just a couple of thoughts, Silky/Beth told me Atwood was the originator of the red truck sighting..... RO may have told Monaghan that night as well since she felt suspicious about it...she relayed this to Beuseleil in the following days I believe in the same article as Area Man Laments.....in that article Beuseleil discounts the red truck sighting as anything connected. RO stated she felt they thought she brought it up only after reading about Maura's disappearance so maybe she didn't say anything that night to Monaghan.

I think there is a bit of truth to things that Atwood has said on the record and off.
For example he said he was in LE....from what I have heard is that he may have been a dog catcher.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>odd that TM would watch from window and never go out after LE showed up to see what was going on.

Was it TM who was reported in one or more articles to have "switched windows" at one point? That early on in the discussion of Maura's disappearance, my reaction was that he switched windows because she had left the Saturn and had begun walking toward the 112/Bradley Hill Rd. intersection? And he "followed her" visually. Anyone remember who else was in the TM house at that time?

Quija wrote:

<quoted text>
Was it TM who was reported in one or more articles to have "switched windows" at one point? That early on in the discussion of Maura's disappearance, my reaction was that he switched windows because she had left the Saturn and had begun walking toward the 112/Bradley Hill Rd. intersection? And he "followed her" visually. Anyone remember who else was in the TM house at that time?

yes Quija it was TM who was looking out one window and then moved to another. I don't remember TM ever stating that they followed Maura visually.

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>yes Quija it was TM who was looking out one window and then moved to another. I don't remember TM ever stating that they followed Maura visually.

Hi Citigirl --- I think I goofed and his first name is John and his wife is Virginia. Thanks for confirming which family that was; so much information, so few neurons....

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Whatever Muara was she was not a highly trained West Point cadet. She got through beast which is just an initiation. I understand that many people who hear about beast think that is the hardest thing they have ever heard of but that is just an initiation. She didn’t even make it to plebe summer as far as I know because I don’t think she made it into her sophomore year. This is not to belittle Maura. There is a tendency for people who have no experience with the military to think that she was some kind of highly trained military individual. Certainly she was physically fit and mentally sharp this she was not trained as an actual combatant. Those who are know the military know that her training was not of any significance, certainly to the point she was at. It is actually belittling to the people who have gone through all the training at West Point or are actual trained combatants to consider Maura highly trained.
I keep hearing this repeated over and over so I would like to set the record straight in this respect. Like I said I am sure she was very capable mentally and physically but having known and trained West point cadets and worked closely with OCS candidates as well as having gone through PNOC school and other military combat training and being a combat trained sergeant in an infantry battalion I have some familiarity with the training the West Pointers received and what actual combat trained personal go through.
Even graduates of the academy are NOT considered highly trained military personnel. And you may just have to take it on faith that even the officers that graduate are not considered highly trained military personnel. They are trained primarily as managers. The day to day workings of any combat platoon is left to the sergeants. In general (in broad brush terms) officers look at strategy and NCO’s look at combat tactics. That doesn’t mean they don’t participate in the missions but most of the smart ones listen very carefully to what the NCO has to say. There is no way their 4 years of college (partly spent learning accounting, algebra, and physics, etc.) is any way a substitute for the 10 to 20 years combat training and experience of the platoon/squad or even the fire team sergeant. Most of the smarter second lieutenants I have met knew this and understood their role.
Bill

thank you for the clarification and buzz words...that's what i suspected...i'd planned to ask my daughter's father-in-law a WP grad & career military in a few days, but you've done the job.

I believe Maura spent two more semisters taking Chemical Engineering at University of Mass then she transfered to Nursing, and three semisters prior at West Point. Someone please correct me if this is in error...

thanks mcsmom for the clarification re: red truck, I did not think that she had told Monahan about the red truck, and as you stated Beausoleil (m.s.) is whom she reported the sighting of the red truck within a day or two..

Interesting that SBD was the author of the red truck, and presumably he told Smith. Wonder where he saw the Red Truck, passing by before or after the accident or later when he searched westwardly and down French Pond Road area... we know that the SBD did not go into the convenience store, as per. R.O.

I sincerely wish that the SBD would drop in on the forum and clarify things, he could be so helpful and maybe he has assisted law enforcement with the investigation? We know so little about what law enforcement is doing in the investigation and it is anyone's guess figuring out what the school bus driver did and why?

Personally speaking, I don't get the SBD's stories, and his vassilations have cast him in a poor light. I don't get why he allegedly backed his bus up the driveway and parked by the garage, and the neighbour stating he had never done that before...given Maura as he stated was intoxicated, staggering and slurring her words, one would think his eyes would have been glued to that road, and that he would have parked his bus nose near the 112.

I don't get why the SBD was not in when Haverhill 911 called him at 1943, because he states when he came out the police had already arrived, but this is 1946. I don't get why his wife said the girl was gone and they don't know she is??? So puzzling, the girl was not gone at 1943, and she was there when her husband left the accident scene...perhaps there are misquotes, perhaps the timing if off but none of what the SBD says makes sense or rings true to me, and as stated many times, perhaps he was just looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

Have we seen the 911 report from Hanover, the call from the SBD, when they called Haverhill, we know that Haverhill called at 1943.

Thinking out loud...
Is is not quoted somewhere that Smith drove his car to the SBD's house, so how does the witness coming from Cottage Hospital drive by and see Bronco #1 parked nose to nose at the accident site, it is my understanding that Smith did not enter Westman's house so he should have been visible if his Bronco was parked on the road.

In total there were 8 witnesses, 5 at the Westman, grandfather, son, and daughter in law, and grandson and his wife, who at the Marriott's, husband and wife, and the SBD. Is this correct...
I do not know if all the Westman's were watching, and the elderly Westman died several years ago...

should read 2 at Marriott's

Wowzer wrote:

<quoted text>
In my opinion everything at the scene indicated it was a walkaway. There was no blood, no signs of a struggle and no person.
This type of accident is much more common here than you might think. A couple years ago two young men flipped their car over on it's roof in front of a neighbors house and not far from 112. There was no one in the car when police arrived and the FD was asked to BOLO for them. LE found one and FD saw the other running thru woods.
I'm just saying this not because even though it's not an everyday occurance it is not that unusual to find a vehicle that has been in an accident or gone off the road with no occupants in it.
Your sister is a completely different story. She evidently was still at the scene of her accident since they identified her and took her to the hospital.

everything at he scene indicates a voluntary drive away. no indication that driver walked into woods. no indication of struggle either visual or sound reporte by neighbors . if driver started to walk street pd or ems would have seen him/her