Where is MAURA MURRAY

Detective Columbo wrote:

Just to clear something up.....
Within a month of Maura's disappearance, people in the area were getting very sick of Mr. Murray and his family as well as investigators asking questions. Most people didn't even want to talk to us. A few locals are quoted as saying, "nothing happened to her, she was drunk, suicidal, troubled and more" I live only a short distance from the acc. scene and I have questioned almost all of the people who live in the 2 to 3 mile radius. I don't believe I ever heard one person say "Sorry I can't HELP" most just brushed us off and said "Good Luck" or "Get off my property" .......Yeah, there are alot of nice caring people up here. I even had guns pointed at me when driving into peoples driveways. "WELCOME TO NH, NOW GO HOME" Like the bumper sticker says.
Just a point I want to make....

It may be incendiary or nuts, but it also happens to be the truth.

RE White Wash #8978

"CW has a bit of a past so who better to pin
something on."

Tantalizing remark. Please share.

White Wash wrote:

Where is the butt? They are never smart enough to
take them with them.

Ouch.

Hello, pot? This is kettle. So nice to see you again.

Det.C..I am sure you remember what brought me to
the first Forum...the following words.
"There's a man going around town being a PIA, looking for his daughter"...
Didn't/doesn't sound very warm and fuzzy to me..

DNA LESSON

If Maura did not submit a biological sample for nuclear DNA testing (typically a non-invasive buchle swab of the cheek inside the mouth) before her disappearance, the crime lab analysts in the DNA section do not have her DNA profile to compare to any DNA profiles they might develop from evidence the cops submit to the lab for DNA testing.

Question: Is there a way to overcome this problem?
Answer: Yes.
Question: How?
Answer: A gene consists of 2 alleles. Hypothetically, to simplify the explanation, let's say that a particular gene of interest is known to have 7 alleles in the human population. First question: How many different combinations of 2 of the 7 alleles are possible? Answer: apply this simple mathematical formula: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7=28. There are 28 possible combinations of 2 alleles. Don't forget that a combination can include the same 2 copies of the same allele.

OK, let's start with the mother and assume that her 2 alleles that compose the gene of interest are A and B. Her genotype for that gene is AB.

Let's further assume that the father's genotype is BC. Notice that mom and dad each have the B allele.

Time for some birds and bees now so don't get all worked up, right? Control yourselves.

The egg cell produced by the mother will contain 1 of her 2 alleles, either the A or the B.

The sperm cell produced by the father also will contain 1 of his 2 alleles, either the B or the C.

Their child's genetic identity necessarily is limited to a combination of 1 allele contributed by each parent. What are the possible combinations?

AB, AC, BB, BC.

If Maura's mom and dad contributed biological samples for DNA testing, the analysts would have developed their profiles and would have deduced Maura's possible genotype at each of the 13 genetic sites that are profiled in identity testing. If they should develop a genetic profile from saliva residue on the coke can, for example, and they find a genotype at any of the 13 sites that contains an allele that neither parent could have contributed, then the source of the DNA on the coke can cannot be Maura. Let's say, for example, that the source of the DNA sample has a BD genotype. Since her mother and father do not have a D allele at that genetic site, Maura cannot have a BD genotype. Therefore, she is excluded.

This is how paternity testing is done, except the analyst has the mother and the child's genetic profiles and is examining the putative father's profile to see if he can be excluded as the father at any of the 13 sites. If not, he's the daddy.

That's the way it's done, folks.

Pot sees the kettle being judged the same as before hummmmmmmm oh well always nice to see you
too

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
Ouch.
Hello, pot? This is kettle. So nice to see you again.

Detective Columbo wrote:

Just to clear something up.....
Within a month of Maura's disappearance, people in the area were getting very sick of Mr. Murray and his family as well as investigators asking questions. Most people didn't even want to talk to us. A few locals are quoted as saying, "nothing happened to her, she was drunk, suicidal, troubled and more" I live only a short distance from the acc. scene and I have questioned almost all of the people who live in the 2 to 3 mile radius. I don't believe I ever heard one person say "Sorry I can't HELP" most just brushed us off and said "Good Luck" or "Get off my property" .......Yeah, there are alot of nice caring people up here. I even had guns pointed at me when driving into peoples driveways. "WELCOME TO NH, NOW GO HOME" Like the bumper sticker says.
Just a point I want to make....

Just to clear things up clearer.
You live in the Haverhill area Columbo? I thought you lived down country further.
You didn't come to my house. Nor my friends house which lives even closer to the scene than me so what houses did you go to? I know Fred went to my friends house but not a PI. Funny as I'm within that distance.
I do not believe you had guns pointed at you. Not unless you were prowling around someone's yard in the dark. I have never in all my years living here ever heard of guns pointed at someone for driving in their driveways. I think you are reading too many hillbilly books.
Could it be that people didn't want to talk to you because they had already talked to LE, Fred, family members and maybe people from this forum?
Why were PI's, Fred and family members even going around asking questions within a month of her disappearance? I would think the LE were still investgating everything in that time frame. Could it be that the PI's and Fred actually hindered the investigation by questioning everyone until they were sick of answering questions?? After all the questioning that he went through already didn't a PI find out where the SBD retired to and went out of state to find him and to try to question him further?
Yes I can understand the people being sick of being questioned. Over and over and over again by a variety of total strangers.
Just a point I want to make.

Nice!
Can it be obtained from a tooth brush?
How long can samples last?
Example air bag, bottle?
Thanks!

Mason wrote:

DNA LESSON
If Maura did not submit a biological sample for nuclear DNA testing (typically a non-invasive buchle swab of the cheek inside the mouth) before her disappearance, the crime lab analysts in the DNA section do not have her DNA profile to compare to any DNA profiles they might develop from evidence the cops submit to the lab for DNA testing.
Question: Is there a way to overcome this problem?
Answer: Yes.
Question: How?
Answer: A gene consists of 2 alleles. Hypothetically, to simplify the explanation, let's say that a particular gene of interest is known to have 7 alleles in the human population. First question: How many different combinations of 2 of the 7 alleles are possible? Answer: apply this simple mathematical formula: 1+2+3+4+5+6+7=28. There are 28 possible combinations of 2 alleles. Don't forget that a combination can include the same 2 copies of the same allele.
OK, let's start with the mother and assume that her 2 alleles that compose the gene of interest are A and B. Her genotype for that gene is AB.
Let's further assume that the father's genotype is BC. Notice that mom and dad each have the B allele.
Time for some birds and bees now so don't get all worked up, right? Control yourselves.
The egg cell produced by the mother will contain 1 of her 2 alleles, either the A or the B.
The sperm cell produced by the father also will contain 1 of his 2 alleles, either the B or the C.
Their child's genetic identity necessarily is limited to a combination of 1 allele contributed by each parent. What are the possible combinations?
AB, AC, BB, BC.
If Maura's mom and dad contributed biological samples for DNA testing, the analysts would have developed their profiles and would have deduced Maura's possible genotype at each of the 13 genetic sites that are profiled in identity testing. If they should develop a genetic profile from saliva residue on the coke can, for example, and they find a genotype at any of the 13 sites that contains an allele that neither parent could have contributed, then the source of the DNA on the coke can cannot be Maura. Let's say, for example, that the source of the DNA sample has a BD genotype. Since her mother and father do not have a D allele at that genetic site, Maura cannot have a BD genotype. Therefore, she is excluded.
This is how paternity testing is done, except the analyst has the mother and the child's genetic profiles and is examining the putative father's profile to see if he can be excluded as the father at any of the 13 sites. If not, he's the daddy.
That's the way it's done, folks.

Nasty Divorce!

Mason wrote:

RE White Wash #8978
"CW has a bit of a past so who better to pin
something on."
Tantalizing remark. Please share.

I find it very interesting!
Nice Job!

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
Possible, I suppose, if he was up to no good and she had reason to recognize and be afraid of him, perhaps due to an earlier unpleasant encounter such as her clipping the front or back bumper of his truck attempting to get away from him. That may have caused the dent in the engine hood on the driver's side above the bumper. However, if that's true, how did she get away from him, or how did he lose her? She could not have outrun him in the Saturn.
BTW, in the photograph of the damage to the hood a red dot appears on the headlamp. Do you know if that's an artifact in the photo and, if not, do you know if anyone swabbed and analyzed it? What if it's red paint that chemically matches a product sold by a major paint manufacturer to auto manufacturers and auto body shops?
That would be an interesting development, wouldn't it?
Or, maybe it's human blood.

Hey Mason what do you see for inspection?

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
Possible, I suppose, if he was up to no good and she had reason to recognize and be afraid of him, perhaps due to an earlier unpleasant encounter such as her clipping the front or back bumper of his truck attempting to get away from him. That may have caused the dent in the engine hood on the driver's side above the bumper. However, if that's true, how did she get away from him, or how did he lose her? She could not have outrun him in the Saturn.
BTW, in the photograph of the damage to the hood a red dot appears on the headlamp. Do you know if that's an artifact in the photo and, if not, do you know if anyone swabbed and analyzed it? What if it's red paint that chemically matches a product sold by a major paint manufacturer to auto manufacturers and auto body shops?
That would be an interesting development, wouldn't it?
Or, maybe it's human blood.

Mason, the simple answer is mitochondrial DNA. If they have DNA from the bottles/glasses and they have DNA from Maura's mom and sister, then they can indeed know that either Maura's sister, Maura's mom, or Maura were in that car. If it comes back positive then there is a 98% it is Maura's DNA, provided her mother and sister were not drinking from the bottles/glasses.

I'm a newcomer to this site and, from the comments that I've read, their appears to have been some reluctance and push-back in regard to inquiries and discussions of what was going on in Amherst before the trip north. If this is true, I think everyone needs to understand that solving cases like Maura's often require getting inside the victim's head to narrow the field of possible scenarios that may have happened. Brent Turvey, a professional profiler with his own practice, always includes a thorough study of the victim as part of his effort to understand why the perp selected her.

For example, I'd like to know if she was a trusting person. If she was, that increases the field of possible suspects. Has she ever been known to accept a ride from a stranger? If not, that is useful information because it narrows the range of people from whom she may have accepted a ride to someone she knows.

Assuming she was abducted by a stranger, given her personality, what sort of person might she have trusted enough to accompany him to a more private setting where the abduction took place?

The answers to questions of this nature may be the only way to solve this case as we approach the fifth anniversary of her disappearance.

I certainly understand and respect the family's desire for privacy, but I think a balance can be reached that protects privacy reasonably while not shutting the door on some private information that could break the case.

I'm specifically thinking of the CW and the hospital employee as potential suspects and I'm wondering if either or both of them are the sorts of people that Maura might be inclined to trust, even though they would have been strangers. Unfortunately, I also know little about them so The scope of my what-if musings is so broad at this point as to be virtually meaningless.

Shack wrote:

Det.C..I am sure you remember what brought me to
the first Forum...the following words.
"There's a man going around town being a PIA, looking for his daughter"...
Didn't/doesn't sound very warm and fuzzy to me..

We have talked this to death but here we go again.

If someone repeatedly came to my house. Or snuck around my house and was going through my trash AND IN PARTICULAR WAS MAYBE SCARING MY FAMILY repeatedly by showing up without invite. Especially after I have answered their questions repeatedly and still had people appear in my yard uninvited. I would be more than a little pissed. It would not take me long to want to not have anything to do with them. If they were lucky I would call the police. If I thought they were a threat on another level it would get ugly. They have no right of entitlement to talk to me or my family or trespass on my land regardless of what they might think. Not legally, morally or otherwise.

You next thing you need to do is answer the question how many times does someone get to ask the same questions from the same people and getting the same answers before they would be considered a pain in the ass. Like I have taught my boys. The definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Mr. Murray can be both a pathetic figure and a pain in the ass if he or his representatives have done this. If you don’t believe me give me your phone number and address and let me call or visit you every day, unannounced. I’ll just show up going through your yard. When I see you I’ll ask you whatever question you want every time and then ask it again the next time I see you. But I won’t believe you so I am entitled to trespass and maybe come back unannounced to talk to my wife or kids. How many of these visits would it take before you called the cops or it got ugly?

If that is what they people in the area are putting up with no wonder they don’t want to see anything or anyone related to this case. Remember, the only people they may have to talk to is the police and only then to a point. No one is required to talk to the family the PI’s or anyone else.

Bill

Detective Columbo wrote:

Some people within a few miles of the scene never even heard of Maura or the acc. seems unlikely to me seeing everyone knows everything about everybody up here.....Peyton Place, NH.

Are you a licensed PI? I'm asking because I highly doubt a respectable licenced PI would be making the unprofessional statements that you have been making lately.

Sara wrote:

Mason, the simple answer is mitochondrial DNA. If they have DNA from the bottles/glasses and they have DNA from Maura's mom and sister, then they can indeed know that either Maura's sister, Maura's mom, or Maura were in that car. If it comes back positive then there is a 98% it is Maura's DNA, provided her mother and sister were not drinking from the bottles/glasses.

Yeah, I know. I posted a rather long series of messages last week on mtDNA and its value in solving crimes. I posted the message on nuclear DNA testing because I've seen some questions about it in some of the messages and just wanted to provide a brief and simplified message about it as a guide.

I'm also preparing a similar primer on serial killers and profiling that I hope to post later today or tonight.

I'm very familiar with serial killers because I've represented several of them when I was handling death-penalty cases.

mason....RO and the store owner were not inside the shop early on...they stood outside on the front deck of the store that faces the road as the temps were mild enough that evening.

Hello Peripateia,

Was it you who on the ex-MMM forum mentioned having had some kind of dream/vision of Maura having encountered some type of nasty situation while driving up from Amherst, MA, to VT/NH?

I believe this was being talked about on the ex-MMM board?

Thanks!

White Wash wrote:

Hey Mason what do you see for inspection?
<quoted text>

I referring to the photograph of the damage to the front end of the Saturn that I got from a link at the mauramurraymissing site.

It looks like a red round-shaped object in the lower right corner of the headlight just below the big dent in the hood. I can't tell what it is. I'm wondering if it might be a blood stain or smear of some kind. I don't think it's an artifact from the photographic process. No one has mentioned it, so I thought I'd ask the question and see if anyone has an answer.

Does anyone know if Maura had a flashlight? She probably would have had a very difficult time navigating her way down a road without one since it was cloudy and there aren't many streetlights, if any for long stretches of road. In urban areas, city lights reflect back off the clouds and help illuminate the area. I doubt if there was much of that type of illumination present on 2/9.

Navigating through the woods without a flashlight would have been impossible, I assume.

And how high were the snow banks along the sides of the roads on 2/9?

Can we definitively conclude that the dent in the hood occurred after Maura left Amherst because I can't see how the headlights would have been very useful after dark since both are aimed down. I don't believe she could have kept up with traffic on the interstate and, given their condition, I think a cop would have pulled her over.

Anyone have definitive answers to these questions?