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Wowzer
Concord, NH
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citigirl wrote: <quoted text>CW lived in a trailer on that property in 04 while the house that CW now lives in was being built. The view from where the trailor was and where the house is would have different views to the roadway. Why would the trailer have different views? Unless my memory is failing me wasn't it right next to the house he was building only closer to Bradley Hill? I believe it sat back just as far or almost as far as the house sets. Both had windows facing Bradley Hill RD and 112. I'm just trying to help citigirl as this forum is taking on a life of it's own and there are many facts that are being changed and untruths being said. If this forum is to help find what happened to Maura then I think everything should be looked at and questioned and not just focus on something that was beat to death for over 4 years especially if it makes no sense. I hesitate to even post here even when I see something that I know isn't right in fear of some thinking I am attacking them as has happened in the past. It is a public forum though and everyone should be able to voice their opinions. A difference of opinions is a good thing sometimes.
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Shack wrote: Peri, I am here listening/reading..I was minding
my manners in not interrupting you...but, I have
been nodding in agreement to most of your Posts.
Thought I would throw in something else here
just to get your head spinning again. ;-]
A local poster wrote some time ago that another
area towing service, Northland, had been called
by mistake that night, prior to the call to Lavoies...(wasn't noted in GCSL)
And...that photographs were taken that night.
I would think that those photographs are date stamped and stored in the file folders at HPD.
Back to you Peri...... Who called them Shack, the 911 dispatcher, or was it revealed who called... love to see the photos of the tire tracks, as they appear to be someone hitting a snow bank and backing up... also, Faith Westmans report to 911, does not correspond to Smith's version of what happened, and if was the Marrotts' or Westmans' who stated that the car back up and parked parrell to the road... neither version of the witnesses correspond to Smith's accident report....ya got to wonder what version to believe, or perhaps the dispatcher got it backwards, someone got it backwards, as the evidence that we know of presented by law enforcement does not match the witnesses... Pictures don't lie, one wonders why the pictures are being witheld.. Also, don't understand if Maura squeezed out of her car driver's side and she was in the snow bank, and the door impression (as Sharon stated was in the snow on Wed. when she visited the crash site) where are the foot prints...almost would seem as though the person exited from the passengers side... Did Faith Westman say that the person smoking was sitting in the passenger's seat?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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truth wrote: <quoted text>
Very interesting!
So does anyone else think that the red truck was not invloved with the MM accident and in fact related to the suicide call at Lime Kiln Road? That also invloved a student aged girl, correct?
Perhaps the red truck was someone concered for the girls and was out looking for her? That could explain the suspicious behavior when seeing RO?? it was a male involved in the suicide attempt at Lime Kiln Road 19 years old and taken to Cottage Hospital, and Smith responded to the call 2145 thereabouts... The Oliveri School (detained youths) is in Pike and near Lime Kiln road....thought maybe there was a relationship with the youth and the school The Red truck stopped at the Pike Store seemed maybe it had some relationship to this youth and considered perhaps he did not escape by himself and maybe he or they stole a vehicle.. and at this time RO had not come forth to the forum What is coincidential is the red truck being stopped by police in Pike also the report of the construction work and the youth sited near Whicheverville seemed like it might have significance...(confused yet) to the the youth on Lime Kiln road. Several people researched this material, and it seemed that the Youth might be connected to Maura's accident...such as a youth with long hair might be mistaken for a girl... whether the youth had any connection to the red truck incidence in Pike is not known... Separate... R.O. siting of the Red Truck, I DO believe has significance, to Maura, at least it cannot be ruled out due to timing and proximity to the accident...and more compeling the behavior of the truck driver... Whether any of these incidents are connected is a dice throw we do not know, everyone just trying to find answers on the forum and connect the dots? Significantly, RO stated that she DID NOT report the red truck siting to the officer that stopped her on the road the night of the accident... therefore any searching by police of a red truck that night the source of the information was NOT RO.... RO felt that the police did not take her seriously when she informed them about the incident with the red truck...after the fact.. When I read RO report in the paper, was surprized that she was not taken seriously by police, but the confusion with the mention of Bath seemed not to jive... When RO came to the forum and gave further details, the place and timing of the siting of the Red Truck took on new significance.... Whether or not any of these events and circumstances are connected is not known, but worthy of investigation... RO thought that the truck driver was trying to get a good look at her, looking for someone.... MY BENT is that the Red Truck driver was looking for ANYONE to pick up? Not trying to identify her, but rather she might have been the persons next victim, but something changed his mind... although the truck driver gave RO a bad feeling she did not consider herself a likely victim, however because she did not consider it, doesn't make it true... because I consider it, doesn't make it true either... how confused are you know? Sorry very difficult to explain... surely others can add more
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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truth: meant to say in last line of post, how confused are you NOW!? Welcome to the world of trying to find answers of what became of Maura?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Mason wrote: Peri,
The reason why I adjusted the dispatch times by moving them up 20 minutes was to see how that might affect the theory that the Saturn was in an earlier accident and the theory that the red pickup truck may have picked up Maura. For quite awhile I've been puzzling at the apparent discrepancy between witness recollections of times and the dispatch times. For example, the Westmans said they heard the loud thump at 7 pm or a little after, but according to dispatch, Faith Westman didn't call 911 until 7:27 pm. We know they watched the scene from their window for awhile before she called 911, but did she really wait for approximately 25 minutes before she decided to call 911? I decided that the Westmans must have been mistaken about the time they heard the thump.
I had the same problem with the information that Anne heard over the radio. Although the information that she heard seemed to be an accurate description of the accident on Rte 112 halfway between the Weathered Barn and the Bradley Hill Road intersection, including the report of the female driver leaving the scene in a POV, it couldn't have been the same accident because she heard it around 7 pm. I've doubted Weeper's theory that the report Anne heard was a description of a previous accident because we haven't found any reference to it any log and the whole idea seems a bit contrived.
I had the same problem with the hospital employees recollection of being passed on Goose Lane by Sgt Smith at 7:10 pm which would have placed Smith at the Weathered Barn accident before Faith Westman reported it.
I finally asked myself if three independent witnesses (the Westmans, Anne, and the hospital employee) could each have been mistaken about the right time (i.e., 20 minutes early), or was the dispatch time 20 minutes late?
Since all of the facts reported by those witnesses and Robinson Ordway sync perfectly with the events noted in the dispatch log, but for the 20 minute gap, I decided maybe the simplest answer to the confusion caused by the disparate times is that the dispatch log's time stamp was running 20 minutes late.
I must add that I'm not very comfortable with that conclusion because I've never heard of a police dispatch office being off like that.
Just another conumdrum, huh? Mason: All the newspapers and reports initially stated that the accident occured at 7p.m. Smith himself stated in the press, he was called to the accident between 7-7:30 pm., how this mistake happened and why is anyone's guess... I think it is possible that Smith could have been looking for someone off the road, without it going through the police logs. For example, someone could have called the police station and spoke directly to Smith and said there is a car off the road on Swiftwater/Goose Lane.. simple... Do we know where Smith was at 7 p.m. If someone did not call dispatch there would be no log at all. I asked and don't know could someone have radioed Smith without going through dispatch, hamm or cb radio? Haven't a clue, but a thought.... Also, Smith could have been at the local donut shoppe or garage and someone told him that a car was off the road... The 7 p.m. mistake was pepetuated for some time... how this happened wow, I don't know, why police did not correct this immediately surprized me, because if your looking for witnesses a half hour makes a heck of a distance.... I feel that the dispatch is not the only source for being notified of an incident on the road... Many people are intimidated by 911, and also if you know a person on the force, you are more than likely to call them directly. after hearing Anne's report of a previous accident and the incorrect timing, I thought perhaps the police left it open so as not to come back to bite them when a previous accident or car off the road was made public...
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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mason con't from above it is too complicated for me to imagine that the log timing is off...that would set the state and Haverhill up for major law suit...tampering with evidence, the whole lot would loose their jobs... Smith notated on the accident report link posted on Maura Murray forum that he was notified at 1935, WOW what a mistake. This notation does not match the Grafton County Sherriff's 911 logs... why did write in this time, or did he think the family/public would not get ahold of these logs... bloody confusing!
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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I had a picture of the trailer at one point that someone sent to me, but it is on a computer given to my son, so now I am not sure, Did the CW's trailer have toys spewed over the yard? If this is it, the trailer was close to the road and the area opened. It was white... Am I mistaken citigirl?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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GW, TJ, Benji, Harry not ignoring you, just don't know how to connect your dots, seems as though you are communicating with one another,...talking to yourself and then answering...never saying anything except critizing...and go to find answers in Amherst... what do you figure the company that runs the bus company that Atwood worked for had anything to do with Maura's disappearance...just because it is located near Kennedy Hall? Can't follow your dots if you want answers or others to participate in your thoughts, then give some reason to look into Amherst as the place where Maura disappeared. I don't believe it was Maura at the car at the Weatherbarn, and it is difficult to fathom why an intelligent woman would head out alone after dark without knowing the compeling reason, that being said, it seems she drove in that direction, and something happened on route... Perhaps something happened in Amherst to Maura, but whomever was involved, had to have access to her room, had to go there and tamper with computer, had to leave etc...pack up the room, send emails, know who to send them to, etc. Maura would have to be complicit in this for the person to know who to send the email to...seems rather conspiratorial to me...taking more than one person...and a person who had to know a great deal about Maura...seems way to risky and complicated to me. But willing to hear your theory, other than off the cuff remarks with no elaboration of theory, no reason to set one's sites further than 1-5 miles from accident site... sorry, if I seem critical, just you folks or one folk seem to have an agenda all your own... just my opinion...nothing more, nothing less
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Judged:
2
1
moose thanks for your description.. one more question, if you were headed from the lake, going to the A-frame,through the woods, is it on an incline... I painted a picture of the area of my vision but it too is on another computer which my son has and is stored away somewhere?! I have the original but it is packed away...will have to dig it out and post it on advocate's forum, as can't figure out how to do that here! The vision begins at the water, perhaps the road I am seeing is further down Lodge Lane... the house, the brook, the lake, the area, the lack of houses, the close proximity to the accident site all fit...just not the road and the incline thanks again for your trouble White Wash: do you have any pictures of this area...saw the ones you have already posted and thanks for those, but do you have others from the Valley Road Lodge lane area?
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“ Adopt Shelter Animals ”
Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Comments: 425
Danvers, MA
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Brad wrote: <quoted text>Probably for the reason Amherst is off the list. Few of the facts (which, after all, come from that notorious fountain of truth, the internet)that were thought to have been really true even a few months ago, let alone a couple or more years ago, have held up under scrutiny.
It reminds one of those murder mysteries put on by the Hampshire Shakespeare Company. Maybe there is a Maura Murray who did, in fact, disappear, but the rest is an internet hoax of some kind. Ha-ha!
The people at the top and in the middle of the chain are known. And a few of the victims of the chain are known (which include but are not limited to Maura Murray), but the actual perpetrator in the Murray case could one or more of a few different people. Oh, absolutely. Amazing stuff. THE INTERNET. The good news is that while all the chatter/blather continues here...the new site is up and running and able to preserve selected chatter/blather. The one criticizing the guy presenting with multiple personalities is the same one who paints mind pictures and adjusts them according to the day and hour. Pick one. I vote for the Amherst theories, the wry humor and the short answers. There is obviously not enough information...very few "facts" are evident in order to "solve" the "crime"...and while some deny that is their purpose, sleuthing has taken on a life of its own. VTY, Ms. Mean-Incendiary
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“ Adopt Shelter Animals ”
Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Comments: 425
Danvers, MA
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Judged:
1
1
Just a curious and quik count...from page 550 forward, Mason occupied 53 posts, while Peri took 44. Unable to count Alden's posts for obvious reasons. Prolific writers, indeed. VTY, Ms. Mean-Incendiary
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White Wash
Lebanon, NH
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See ** for my avoidance peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
White Wash:
you avoid standing up and accounting for your statement that you think that Atwood was pressured to change his statement regarding the sobriety of the operator of the Saturn at the scene of the accident, is this your view or do you have something substaintial to back up your statement? Sounds to me you said something you shouldn't have? AS you keep avoiding answering the question regarding your own statement.
** Are you kidding I just say this so calm down
with your bad self! What more than all the newspaper article and Atwoods actually statement
do I need to back it up?
Your comment that NHSP might not have viewed the ATM video??? This sounds unbelieveable, especially since this could be downloaded to a computer and uploaded to the NHPD?
**Sadly lots of believe things here!**
This video should be available to Fred to Laura to identify their daughter, or one of Maura's siblings. Law enforcement is placing themselves in a very precarious legal position by witholding this evidence.
**How do you figure this?**
**Seriously Fred was ok with MA investigations so that would be a beef he should take up with them.**
**No proof that that video has made to NH**
We have Atwood not been shown a police line up of pictures to identify the witness, I believe it was one of the family that showed Maura's picture to Atwood (I consider Sharon to be family).
**The family showed Atwood pictures his first response was it was her the drivers hair had been down.**
Unless Atwood was given a polygraph, as he is the only person that places Maura at the weatherbarn, I do not believe him. He is not only deceptive of his statement regarding Maura's sobriety but he has not been forth coming about what he did after the accident.
**Who said he hasn't?****Do you know for a fact he didn't?**** Maybe he has would explain why
the police aren't interested in him or neighbors perhaps?**
There maybe a vailid reason
1. complusive liar
2. something to hide personally
3. covering for someone else
4. too afraid to step up to the plate
5. pressured to state things by the police
not only do the neighbours contradict what Atwood did after he left the scene of the accident, the police logs re:911 do not jive with what Atwood said he did....
please explain the discrepency
**First off you have Atwood relaying to the
wife who called the information in.**
where was Atwood when Haverhill 911 called back
to verify his call to Hanover 911 at 1943
why did Barbara state that they did not know where the girl was gone.....and that Atwood has SEEN the accident. Atwood's own account states he saw the accident, "her face was only visible from the lips up, states he saw the airbag deployed, as it deflates as it is inflating, and also, if Maura's face was slumped face down in the airbag after she sat there 5 minutes before he came alone, implies the person was injured
Atwood clearly states that when he came outside after making the call to police, they had already arrived....1946. His phone call was at 1943, that is 3 minutes not accounted for...
either another emergency vehicle had arrived by then or Atwood is trying to create an alibi or hide something he
**Appox is used in all report for what reason?
Cause it's appox****Anyone thinks you can have
all people accounted for in mins is plain out there**
con't
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Ross
Edgewood, MD
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Snowy White wrote: <quoted text>
Oh, absolutely. Amazing stuff. THE INTERNET.
The good news is that while all the chatter/blather continues here...the new site is up and running and able to preserve selected chatter/blather.
The one criticizing the guy presenting with multiple personalities is the same one who paints mind pictures and adjusts them according to the day and hour.
Pick one. I vote for the Amherst theories, the wry humor and the short answers.
There is obviously not enough information...very few "facts" are evident in order to "solve" the "crime"...and while some deny that is their purpose, sleuthing has taken on a life of its own.
VTY,
Ms. Mean-Incendiary Whats the new site? I have been afk the last 2 weeks.
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Hart
Barre, VT
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Judged:
2
Understandably, most would look at two things first and almost exclusively: a missing college student, and the location of the abandoned car. In some ways, the concentration of effort on Haverhill is a little like going back again and again to the ocean spot where a loved one's ashes were dispersed. Or even to a grave site. The departed are no longer there, but it's as close as you can get. The car was there. Her stuff was there. Certainly, it's difficult to disassocite the missing person from her items and where they were last found before she disappeared. It's completely understandable, but it's not logical, and therefore it limits a thorough search for clues. It eliminates too many possible theories, which can actually lead to real evidence.
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Thomas Jefferson
Boulder, CO
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Hart wrote: Understandably, most would look at two things first and almost exclusively: a missing college student, and the location of the abandoned car. In some ways, the concentration of effort on Haverhill is a little like going back again and again to the ocean spot where a loved one's ashes were dispersed. Or even to a grave site. The departed are no longer there, but it's as close as you can get. The car was there. Her stuff was there. Certainly, it's difficult to disassocite the missing person from her items and where they were last found before she disappeared. It's completely understandable, but it's not logical, and therefore it limits a thorough search for clues. It eliminates too many possible theories, which can actually lead to real evidence. Agreed. The constant focus on Haverhill, the WB, and "accident" site hasn't provided many answers, but many people are absolutely convinced this is where the answers lie. I think some progress can be made by just abandoning the theory that Maura was in the car at the WB, and placing some attention on the Amherst area. This, of course, suggests that we look into Maura's life prior to her disappearance, which many people on this forum do not want to happen. Why? I don't know, but I'm guessing there is something to hide, or that there are some really twisted games being played by those who consider themselves "in the know" or have other motivations for keeping the speculation at and around the WB. There is only one person who places Maura in the car at the WB and that is the SBD, and we know he is not a reliable witness. No one else ever saw her, and there is no evidence that she ever left Amherst. Furthermore, there is no evidence that her car was actually driven to NH. Given the evidence (full tank of gas, the type of personal items that were found in the car, the condition of the car prior to it leaving MASS, etc.) if we are to believe such evidence, indicates to me that the car was likely delivered somewhere very close to the WB, then perhaps driven a short distance to the "crash" site.
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Wowzer
Franconia, NH
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Judged:
2
1
peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: I had a picture of the trailer at one point that someone sent to me, but it is on a computer given to my son, so now I am not sure,
Did the CW's trailer have toys spewed over the yard?
If this is it, the trailer was close to the road and the area opened. It was white...
Am I mistaken citigirl? Yes there were toys in the yard. When you have a child or children they play with toys. No mystery there. And yes the trailer was close to the road, Bradley Hill Rd. It was much closer to BH than it was to 112. Peri it seems you ahve something in your head and there's no changing it so please don't take my word for anything. You have said that pictures don't lie so look at the pictures on new site, especially "Related sites in general area" and Accident site to Atwoods picture. You can barely see the top of his roof thru the trees so I have a hard time understanding how he had a good view. Now look at "Accident Location/curve" and see the yellow curve sign in the picture, that is lawn of the CW's neighbor. Down the road across from the bus is Bradley Hill where CW's house/trailer sets back from 112. Can you see it? I didn't think so so how could he have had a clear view to the accident? Pictures don't lie!
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Hart
Barre, VT
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Judged:
2
Almost none of the publically available information regarding the Rt. 112 site is reliable, and what little reliable info does exist publically is of limited use. But the very fact alone that there has been incessant internet discussion despite a paucity of known facts is useful in and of itself. True, it might be argued that the lack of facts is what keeps the discussion nearly always brimming with theories, accusations, acrimony, harmony - all kinds of stuff. But in reality, I think it's really unlikely, regardless of the ardent devotion of even a few, that this discussion about Maura Murray's whereabouts wouldn't trail off after a year or two if it weren't for some telling reason. IOW, if the online discussion continues, then it's propelled, and if it's propelled, then that's at least an indication of something. It's perhaps a meager clue, but a potetial clue nonetheless. Although there are probably some clues in the Haverhill area, the discussion that focuses so microscopically, and almost exclusively on the Rt. 112 curve is nothing but a swamp, a bed of quicksand. It goes nowhere, almost, it seems, deliberately. It is also true that almost no posters have placed even a few unconnected dots on the table. It can hardly be said that this thread constitutes anything like a real investigation (although LE and PI's may use it as a tool), but to the extent that the thread is an attempt to provide some investigative progress, it's amazing that those who demand the most information provide almost no information. Those who criticize the most, those who angrily pound the table for more information passively refuse to dig up and provide any solid information themselves. Maybe they do it in secret or something. They demand that dots be connected, but provide no dots of their own. They might provide some general, constantly shifting theories stated in the most conditional way, but never anything even potentially substantial. They're all gimme, gimme, gimme. There are a few exceptions (posters), but that's the general rule.
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Hart
Barre, VT
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Judged:
2
Thomas Jefferson wrote: <quoted text>
Agreed. The constant focus on Haverhill, the WB, and "accident" site hasn't provided many answers, but many people are absolutely convinced this is where the answers lie. I think some progress can be made by just abandoning the theory that Maura was in the car at the WB, and placing some attention on the Amherst area. This, of course, suggests that we look into Maura's life prior to her disappearance, which many people on this forum do not want to happen. Why? I don't know, but I'm guessing there is something to hide, or that there are some really twisted games being played by those who consider themselves "in the know" or have other motivations for keeping the speculation at and around the WB. There is only one person who places Maura in the car at the WB and that is the SBD, and we know he is not a reliable witness. No one else ever saw her, and there is no evidence that she ever left Amherst. Furthermore, there is no evidence that her car was actually driven to NH. Given the evidence (full tank of gas, the type of personal items that were found in the car, the condition of the car prior to it leaving MASS, etc.) if we are to believe such evidence, indicates to me that the car was likely delivered somewhere very close to the WB, then perhaps driven a short distance to the "crash" site. Well said.
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truth
Maspeth, NY
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Hart wrote: Understandably, most would look at two things first and almost exclusively: a missing college student, and the location of the abandoned car. In some ways, the concentration of effort on Haverhill is a little like going back again and again to the ocean spot where a loved one's ashes were dispersed. Or even to a grave site. The departed are no longer there, but it's as close as you can get. The car was there. Her stuff was there. Certainly, it's difficult to disassociate the missing person from her items and where they were last found before she disappeared. It's completely understandable, but it's not logical, and therefore it limits a thorough search for clues. It eliminates too many possible theories, which can actually lead to real evidence. At this point I do not think anyone wants to eliminate any theory no matter how possible. First, where was she going? She had directions to several places in her car, right? If she WAS in the car at the time of the WB accident then could that help determine her route? Maybe Attitash? Lets say for a minute she was there (Even if eye witness reports are sketchy). There was a scent trail for about a hundred yards and then nothing... What could that mean? Maybe she was picked up by a passerby. Perhaps a neighbor spoke to her and realized she did not want to involve the police and suggested they 'hideout' in the house. She grabs the alcohol and agrees... If so then which neighbor and which house? SBD - knew she didn't want to involve police. He offered for her to come back and wait for help at his house. He backed his bus into his driveway (which was declared 'odd' behavior). Did she grab the booze and items from her car and walk down to his house? Was she hiding in the bus? The scent trail did end here. CW - On route home from work in Franconia at almost same time of the accident. He originally said he saw nothing and then changed his story at a later time and said he might have seen her running down the road. He didn't allow his home to be searched. A-Frame - Cadaver dogs go bonkers at this house. Carpet sample is collected. Brother of the home owner has concerns of brother's involvement and provides the rusty knife. Two pieces of evidence here: carpet and knife. Is it safe to say that these were tested and proven to not be related to the case? What about the call she received before the accident at the WB from a cell tower in the area? Wouldn't her phone bill list the number?
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truth
Maspeth, NY
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Ross wrote: <quoted text>
Whats the new site? I have been afk the last 2 weeks. What he said ^
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