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Rod Knee
Littleton, NH
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Maybe blinded by the light....!!!
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Rod Knee
Littleton, NH
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Judged:
1
ACTUALLY there are 3 main POI'S in the immediate area. Can you name them?
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sophie bean
Bristol, VT
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I have never seen or heard it verified, by the family or anyone else who actually should know, that it was really Maura on the ATM video. This is an example of one of the many enormous problems with this case -something is stated casually, not as fact, with no verification, and it enters the discussion as "fact." If we could eliminate or prove as factual the statements that are no more than rumor or speculation, we'd be a whole lot closer to finding Maura BUT deflecting real discussion by tossing out red herrings has continued unabated for three + years to my knowledge. I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss those subjects. I'm merely saying that stuff that isn't known to be fact shouldn't be discussed as if it were fact. It's hard enough to stay focused in the face of Alden's multiple identities - just SOB the nonsense. As Dawn says, such a waste. Intentional deflection, how interestng.
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Pointer
Flushing, NY
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Judged:
1
I'm not sure why someone would tow Maura's car to a location within a few hundred yards of their home if they had malicious intent. I can understand maybe a mile or more away, but not right next their own house. If the suspicious dent (more like a puncture, with headlight intact and no major bumper damage) WAS made by a trailer hitch, and someone living right near the WB is responsible, then I think it's possible she ran into someone with a trailer hitch on their truck (or they ran into her). Maybe the car was towed, but if so, odds are greater the person towing lived many houses away (or even in Amherst). But I still want to know if it's a fact that the brother of the man who gave Fred the knife really lived in the Aframe...
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Rod Knee
Littleton, NH
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Judged:
2
2
Pointer I think you are right...The knife came from the bother of the A-frame man. This is fact I believe.
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Sugar
Easthampton, MA
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Rod Knee wrote: ACTUALLY there are 3 main POI'S in the immediate area. Can you name them? You go first.
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Pointer
Flushing, NY
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Judged:
1
WHExpress didn't mention a connection between the Aframe and the knife, but it was implied that no comment could be made for personal rights reasons, etc., as the brother of the man who approached Fred was not considered a suspect. Sure sounds like one to me IF he lived in the Aframe, after the dogs' reaction there, which I know some here have suggested explanations for but not shown any hard evidence of the findings. But again, that connection has not been confirmed, right? Did Fred confirm it, thus allowing him to convince PI's to search it with dogs after he waited months/years to be able to do so? I'd like to rule out the Aframe b/c it seems so obvious.
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Sugar
Easthampton, MA
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sophie bean wrote: Intentional deflection, how interestng. Please be more specific. What does "intentional deflection" mean? Intending what? Why? What exactly does "how interesting" mean?
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Sugar
Easthampton, MA
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The same small group of (mostly wealthy) people shows up in the Bish, Murray, and Saratoga Springs cases.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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This is a multiple message post explaining some legal issues that readers may find helpful in understanding when or if criminal charges will be filed in this case. This post was inspired by a question posed by poster Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson wrote: Y'all, I'm teetering 50/50 on whether or not Maura ever left Amherst. Knowing if there is indeed a video of her at store or ATM, and what is on that video could really help in solving this case. AND if LE has video, and video does exist, and Maura isn't on it, why hasn't an arrest been made. Would the evidence be too circumstantial to hold up in court? Mason? Everyone who visits this site often enough to know what we know and don't know is in as good a position as I am to answer your question, including you. I'll provide the definitions that are given to jurors in every case and let ya'll decide. Direct evidence is evidence perceived by one or more of the five senses. Circumstantial evidence is evidence inferred from direct evidence such as it must have snowed last night because there was no snow on the ground before I went to bed and there was snow on the ground when I got up this morning. The law does not assign more value to direct evidence than circumstantial evidence. One is not necessarily more valuable than the other. Jurors get to decide how much weight to assign to the evidence.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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Part 2
The prosecution has the burden of proof in a criminal case each element of the crime or crimes charged beyond a reasonable doubt. The elements of a crime are defined by statute. For example, the crime of Murder in the First degree consists of the following elements:
1. On or about the 9th day of February, 2004;
2. The defendant;
3. Caused the death of Maura Murray, a human being;
4. With premeditated intent to cause her death; and
5. The act or acts that caused her death occurred within the State of New Hampshire in Grafton County.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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Part 3
The defendant must be presumed innocent and must be found not guilty unless the prosecution overcomes the presumption of innocence by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendant does not have to testify or present any evidence. The defendant has a constitutional right to remain silent and no presumption of guilt may be drawn from his silence.
Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not proof beyond all doubt. A reasonable doubt is a doubt for which a reason exists and it may arise from the evidence or lack of evidence.
To reach a verdict of guilty or not guilty, the jury must be unanimous. If the jury cannot unanimously agree that the defendant is guilty, or not guilty, the judge must declare a mistrial after which the prosecution must decide whether to retry the defendant or dismiss the case.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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Part 4
Okay, first we need a defendant and we don't have one yet.
Next, we don't have any direct evidence, such as her body, that Maura Murray is dead. We don't necessarily need any direct evidence because death can be proven by circumstantial evidence alone. There is quote a lot of circumstantial evidence that she is dead, but is there enough to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that she is dead. If you doubt Maura is dead, is your doubt supported by a reason, or is it just wishful thinking? I suspect people may not be able to unanimously agree on this element.
Assuming we had a defendant and Maura is dead, can we unanimously agree that the defendant caused her death with premeditated intent to do so? Without knowing the cause of death, or the circumstances that resulted in her death, I believe there is little chance that we could reach unanimous agreement on each of these two elements (i.e., causation and premeditation).
I hope this message has been helpful to readers in understanding the intellectual process that a prosecutor must go through in deciding whether to charge someone or seek a grand jury indictment charging someone in this case. I've used the standard definition of first degree murder as an illustrative example. The New Hampshire statute may be different, but I'm sure it will include causation and premeditation elements.
I'm going to post this message over on the other site where we can pose a question and vote on it. I'd like to see what the vote will be on the death element. I'm going to pose the question as follows: Are you convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Maura Murray is dead?
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Jeff
Amherst, MA
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Sugar wrote: The same small group of (mostly wealthy) people shows up in the Bish, Murray, and Saratoga Springs cases. They absolutely, positively do show up in all three cases and probably three other cases, too. It's easy to demonstrate.
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citigirl
Bridgewater, MA
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Wowzer wrote: <quoted text>
Why would the trailer have different views? Unless my memory is failing me wasn't it right next to the house he was building only closer to Bradley Hill? I believe it sat back just as far or almost as far as the house sets. Both had windows facing Bradley Hill RD and 112.
I'm just trying to help citigirl as this forum is taking on a life of it's own and there are many facts that are being changed and untruths being said.
If this forum is to help find what happened to Maura then I think everything should be looked at and questioned and not just focus on something that was beat to death for over 4 years especially if it makes no sense.
I hesitate to even post here even when I see something that I know isn't right in fear of some thinking I am attacking them as has happened in the past.
It is a public forum though and everyone should be able to voice their opinions. A difference of opinions is a good thing sometimes. yes the trailer was next to the house and yes the trailer was closer to Bradley Hill Road than the house was. If you look out the side window of the trailer and then look out the side window of the house you would see more of Bradley Hill from the trailer because it is closer to the road where as looking from the house the view would not be the same because the house was farther from the road. Hopefully this explains what I mean. You are definitey right Wowzer there are many facts being changed and untruths being said.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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Judged:
2
2
Okay, I posted the poll on the other site. If interested, please vote and we'll see where we stand on the death issue. The poll will be available for 7 days.
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citigirl
Bridgewater, MA
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Judged:
1
1
Dawn wrote: Citigirl
Can you comment from the family stand point ? Does the family believe the video exists? I'm certain the family has the bank records so they would know where this ATM withdrawl took place. Was this a place she had gone before? Do they think it was her? Sorry to be so bold. I do not want to offend the family. That is the last thing I want to do All ATM's have video's. Was Maura on this video? Have no clue family did not see it.
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citigirl
Bridgewater, MA
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Judged:
1
whiston wrote: Hi all,we don't know why Maura was going to speak with mr Murray on sunday a.m. Maybe she was returning the toyota that he had intended to or had given her and was saying no thanks .Where was and what condition was the saturn in at this time.The only thing that is known is Mauras fathers car was found in N.H.I hope that someone that actually had been in Mauras room in Kennedy Hall before she vanished has the courage to come forward and speak to somebody that can end this.Take care philip Whiston your information about the toyota is incorrect. The toyota belongs to Fred he never intended or never gave Maura the toyota. The car found in NH was Maura's car not her fathers car.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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Judged:
1
FYI: Alden is the source of the information that Fred Murray intended, or already had given the Corolla to Maura. According to the message he posted, his source was someone who worked at the auto body shop where the Corolla was taken to be repaired. Alden added that Fred Murray may have told the insurance adjuster and the body shop that story to assure insurance coverage. I can't recall whether insurance companies typically cover losses caused by an adult son or daughter of the insured when they do not live in the insured's home, but still have the insured's permission to drive the car. I think the insurance company is still obligated to cover the damage, subject to the deductible, etc. Agree or disagree?
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Wowzer
Franconia, NH
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peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
Woszer:
You are correct the CW could not have had a clear view of the accident site, I never said he did, however, it would be pretty impossible to come down the 112 and turn onto Bradley Hill road and not see at 8:15 (which would be the time of his arrival if he passed Whicheverville Road at 8p.m. which is his statement) and not have seen all the emergency vehicles parked along the road.
Do you agree or disagree on this point?
Seeing all these vehicles should have clicked in his head to associate the youth ducking from tree to tree in a region that was unpopulated...and the accident...that is all I believe?
The School Bus Driver did not have a stellar view, however, the new pictures of his house show it is much closer to the road than I previously IMAGINED, as the picture on the MMM site did not show a clear view of the SBD's house...
That being said, I believe the school bus driver could/should have seen is someone walking by his house or a car stopping.
The moon had not yet risen, cloudy, it would be hard to identify clearly who walked by or who passed by, but he could see well enough to know a car stopped or a person walked by his driveway.
The school bus driver did say he saw the police had arrived at 1946 when he came out of his house after making the phone call which does not jive with the time of the sherriff's log,the time that he placed the call to Hanover 911 and in return Haverhill called him back seconds later, still at 1943.
Heck I doubt how well the school bus driver could have seen Maura to positively identify her from the 15 feet away that he states he was at the accident scene.
My only point is the CW could not have missed all the hubbub at the accident scene when he turned off the 112 to Bradley Hill Road. The School Bus driver could not have missed someone stopping at the accident scene to pick Maura up.
If that is a stretch of the imagination I stand corrected...
The SC I agree if he took 112 home from Franconia he should have seen the lights but he also may have come home 116 to BH which is a better way to go in the winter. If he was outside he should have seen something but in the house I doubt very much he could have seen anything. If the SBD was on the bus doing paperwork he must have had a good light on to see. I highly doubt he would be able to see much outside in the dark with the reflection of the lights either on the bus or on his porch. Now if he was sitting in the dark and peering out the window I might agree that he could have seen something but that's not the case. Try it in your own home.
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