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“ Adopt Shelter Animals ”
Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Comments: 425
Gloucester, MA
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FireCat wrote: <quoted text>
This conversation is interesting to read in light of the other conversation--happening simultaneously--that asks us to all be mindful of not defaming the innocent.
Had Columbo put the names and addresses of those locations he had guns pointed at him, would people be jumping down his throat, accusing him of libel, or (worse yet! lol) slander? Yes, probably. And a very good point you make. I actually considered that possibility this afternoon, but didn't linger there long enough to write it! A dilemma. The statement is less useful than if Det. Columbo had been willing to confirm it as fact by naming names...at the same time, it might be harmful and libelous to do so. Two options: 1) Not to make such statements without intending to verify as fact. 2) Provide important info. to the authorities, not a forum. You'll likely think of a third. I know, I'm nagging in the other direction....always away from any invasion of privacy, while whiston pleads for more information. While we're here, we actually agreed 100% on the car insurance issue. Our experience is exactly as you describe it...and it is very common, of course.
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Detective Columbo
Littleton, NH
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Whitcherville rd. begins off of rte 112 by the monument, goes by a private home and continues for approx. 1 mile and comes out at the 90 degree corner on Rte 116 Benton rd. There is a stream called Whitcher brook that flows almost parallel to the rd. and there is a blue house on the sharp corner also. There are old foundations and cellar holes along this rd.
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Wowzer wrote: Peri I have no idea where Whicheverville is. CW took 116 on his way home from Franconia. He then took a right onto 112. He went appoximately 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile and then turned left onto 116 again (this is the area 112/116 he saw the youth) which turns into Bradley Hill at the fork in road.(If he went that way which I have no way of positively knowing.)
I don't see how an outside light out by SBD's would allow greater visibility. Wouldn't that make it even harder to see in total darkness?
These are just my opinions. I wonder though how it is helpful to go over these same people over and over again when they have been gone over with a microscope for almost 5 years with no answers or results. Common sense tells me that no answers to finding out what happened will be found by going over these same people again and again.
Now before I get accused of trying to take this in another direction I will state again this is only my opinion.
If anyone want to keep kicking a dead horse by all means keep on if you think it will help. Wowzer: Beating the dead horse, is to find out why the neighbours the CW, SBD told untruths, as well as Smith. Whether they had anything to do with Maura's disappearance is unknown, the real point is WHY they lied. WHY? Why Smith stated he did not know Maura was missing, needs to be investigated, this cannot be let go? Also, the errors of his timing, no BOLO immediately, not contacting the University of Mass, that his report differs from Faith Westman's account to the 911 dispatcher, and perhaps this is the fault of the dispatcher, a lack of a proper search immediately, these things cannot be let go. The public has the right to question, and find answers, and policies need to be changed that the same thing does not happen the next time... We cannot know what anyone saw, it is speculation, however, even if CW came down the Bradley Hill Road he could not have missed the emergency lights, in the county they can be see for miles, especially on a dark night. Let us be clear that the police found holes in his story. Whicheverville is approx. 4-5 miles down the 112 from the accident site EAST, where he states he saw a youth ducking from tree to tree. This report was made by police. Now perhaps most of the errors are due to reporting errors but this seems a stretch. My only accusations is that there are allot of untruths, why and how his happened, is for the police and hopefully a grand jury to sort out. Lying happens all the time, in the case of Amiee Williams murder, 2 police officers lied, and one other person. The two police officers had to resign, and all three were named as suspects, why these people put themselves in harms way regarding their reputation has never been determined, none of these three suspects had anything to do with her murder. Perhaps looking for 15 minutes of fame, but they were put under a microscope for sure, internet, news and by the police. The price one pays for lying in an investigation of a missing person. One question, are we sure that CW came down the Bradley Hill Road that night? If so what is the source of that information.
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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White Wash wrote: I believe SBD couldn't get through the first time
and gave the girlfriend/ex wife the phone who called it into 911 and was transferred to Grafton.
<quoted text> Thanks for the reply, this contradicts his statements made to the press, and the 911 logs, although we do not have the 911 log from Hanover. The 911 log from Haverhill is the source of the information what was said to Hanover, they state that the SBD called there because he had trouble getting through because the circuits were busy. Hanvoer to Haverhill makes no mention of his wife calling. There is no mention of a transfer or patch threw, if so then he would have still be on the phone. Will check the log... The SBD's actions are also contradicted by neighbours saying, he stayed on his bus a long time before he went into the house. However if he had a ham radio, or cb radio that he could get in touch with 911, that changes things, but he did not say this, nor do the logs indicate this... Do you have a link for the 911 Grafton Sherriff Logs, I have not seen this in 15 months, could you please post the link if you have it, thanks.
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Mason wrote: <quoted text>
I believe you assume too much based on the following points.
1. It's not against the law to drink and drive. Your ability to drive has to be impaired by alcohol and/or drugs, or your blood alcohol level has to be 0.08 or greater. Maura had been drinking before she wrecked her dad's Toyota, but she wasn't charged with DUI.
2. The only alcohol found in the Saturn was a box of Franzia wine in the back seat not easily accessible by the driver without stopping and getting out of the car. We don't know if she had opened the box or the box was compromised by the force of the accident. Perhaps both happened and that would explain the wine spatters inside the Saturn. No drinking container was found inside the car. Sgt Smith found a coke bottle under the car that smelled like it contained alcohol. We don't know if the driver or someone else at the scene deposited the bottle. For all we know it may have been there before the Saturn arrived. An open back window in the Saturn suggests that a passenger was sitting in the back seat.
3. The driver did not appear to be in a hurry to leave the scene because she waited 40 minutes, assuming the accident happened a few minutes after 7 pm, which is the time the Westman's heard the loud thump. The Westmans saw activity around the car so the driver did not suddenly regain consciousness 35 minutes after the crash when the SBD shined a flashlight into the car. Instead, the driver's behavior is consistent with someone waiting to be picked-up.
4. We can't even be certain that Maura was driving the Saturn because the SBD's identification was uncertain.
5. The ambient temperature rose above freezing at 2 pm and remained unseasonably warm for the rest of the day. Characterizing the ambient temperature as "colder than a freezer" is inaccurate.
6. The accident appears to have been staged since the dent in the hood was caused by metal against metal contact with an overhanging metal object and not a snowbank or tree. Maura does not appear to have had a motive to stage an accident at that location.
7. The gloves were a Christmas gift and we have no evidence that Maura ever wore them, so the scent trail may not have been her scent. Presumably, she would have taken them with her if she was in the car and she had previously worn them. Mason Faith reported hearing the accident at the weather barn at 1927. It was initially misreported in the media as being 7p.m. If there was a first accident involving Maura, Anne heard that there was an accident at 7.m., but this was not at the weather barn... Just trying to be clear Maura did not sit in her car 40 minutes at the weather barn, Faith states she was there about 5 minutes before the SBD came along, and he stayed for about 5 minutes...this has the occupant of the vehicle about 10 minutes at the weather barn, as far as I know...which maybe wrong but Faith called at 1927 to 911 hate to be picky but we must keep straight the time, and not give out false information, there is enough of that without adding to the problem... no offense meant p.s. have not ignored your post about Smith travelling from Petticoat Lane, still trying to figure it out...later
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Wowzer
Franconia, NH
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peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
Wowzer: Beating the dead horse, is to find out why the neighbours the CW, SBD told untruths, as well as Smith. Whether they had anything to do with Maura's disappearance is unknown, the real point is WHY they lied. WHY? Why Smith stated he did not know Maura was missing, needs to be investigated, this cannot be let go? Also, the errors of his timing, no BOLO immediately, not contacting the University of Mass, that his report differs from Faith Westman's account to the 911 dispatcher, and perhaps this is the fault of the dispatcher, a lack of a proper search immediately, these things cannot be let go.
The public has the right to question, and find answers, and policies need to be changed that the same thing does not happen the next time...
We cannot know what anyone saw, it is speculation, however, even if CW came down the Bradley Hill Road he could not have missed the emergency lights, in the county they can be see for miles, especially on a dark night. Let us be clear that the police found holes in his story.
Whicheverville is approx. 4-5 miles down the 112 from the accident site EAST, where he states he saw a youth ducking from tree to tree. This report was made by police.
Now perhaps most of the errors are due to reporting errors but this seems a stretch.
My only accusations is that there are allot of untruths, why and how his happened, is for the police and hopefully a grand jury to sort out.
Lying happens all the time, in the case of Amiee Williams murder, 2 police officers lied, and one other person. The two police officers had to resign, and all three were named as suspects, why these people put themselves in harms way regarding their reputation has never been determined, none of these three suspects had anything to do with her murder. Perhaps looking for 15 minutes of fame, but they were put under a microscope for sure, internet, news and by the police. The price one pays for lying in an investigation of a missing person.
One question, are we sure that CW came down the Bradley Hill Road that night? If so what is the source of that information. By all means keep on beating that horse Peri if you think it will help. After all it's only been beat for 5 years. I know where Whitcherville is however you are saying Which-ever-ville. Sorry I misunderstood. I must have missed the info on your comment...***Let us be clear that the police found holes in his story.*** I thought the police found the CW's story to be reliable and that is why they had another search in the area where he claimed to have seen a person on the road. When did they find holes in his story? Where is the source of that information? I never said CW definitely came down BHR. I asked as a question what if he came down BHR.Since it was a question and not a fact there is no source of information.
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Detective Columbo
Littleton, NH
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Mason...
Why from Petticoat lane? He was there at 6:10 pm and cleared that call at 6:25 PM. He would have most likely been coming from some other location by that time, 1 hr 4 min. later. It took Smith 16 1/2 min. to reach the acc. scene, so where does this have his starting point at? At 30 mph he possibly would have been able to drive about 14 to 16 miles adding in stop signs and other factors.
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Detective Columbo wrote: Here is a link to the Original GCSD Log for 2/9/04 and printed out on 2/10/04. It differs from what was released to the Murrays on 11/04/04. There are at least 10 differences I have found. http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/Documents.h... Thanks have been looking and looking for this, will copy it this time. Thanks Columbo p.s. do we know for sure which way the CW came home, I assume from your recent posts that it is not known?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Judged:
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Detective Columbo wrote: Here is a link to the Original GCSD Log for 2/9/04 and printed out on 2/10/04. It differs from what was released to the Murrays on 11/04/04. There are at least 10 differences I have found. http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/Documents.h... Columbo, on the link you provided it states, the log has temporarily been removed, will appear in the next few weeks (????!)
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Detective Columbo
Littleton, NH
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Mason.....
In post # 11825 I stated 14 to 16 miles. Oooops.!
That should have been 6 to 8 miles he should have been able to drive in that time frame
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Judged:
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yankee wrote: <quoted text>
Okay, so where is the link to the second one for comparison? yankee was this log there last night when you looked, I'm presuming you did look then, I ask because it has temporarily been removed, just wondering when it was removed
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truth
Nashua, NH
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Judged:
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peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
Mason
Faith reported hearing the accident at the weather barn at 1927. It was initially misreported in the media as being 7p.m.
If there was a first accident involving Maura, Anne heard that there was an accident at 7.m., but this was not at the weather barn...
Just trying to be clear Maura did not sit in her car 40 minutes at the weather barn, Faith states she was there about 5 minutes before the SBD came along, and he stayed for about 5 minutes...this has the occupant of the vehicle about 10 minutes at the weather barn, as far as I know...which maybe wrong but Faith called at 1927 to 911
hate to be picky but we must keep straight the time, and not give out false information, there is enough of that without adding to the problem...
no offense meant
p.s. have not ignored your post about Smith travelling from Petticoat Lane, still trying to figure it out...later Anne correct me if I am wrong but that is not exactly what you said, right? I think the scanner chatter you heard and the WB accident could be the same. Was it ever reported if the CW smoked?
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FireCat
United States
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Judged:
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peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
yankee was this log there last night when you looked, I'm presuming you did look then, I ask because it has temporarily been removed, just wondering when it was removed It was there this afternoon. It is not there now.
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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Detective Columbo wrote: Mason...
Why from Petticoat lane? He was there at 6:10 pm and cleared that call at 6:25 PM. He would have most likely been coming from some other location by that time, 1 hr 4 min. later. It took Smith 16 1/2 min. to reach the acc. scene, so where does this have his starting point at? At 30 mph he possibly would have been able to drive about 14 to 16 miles adding in stop signs and other factors. I couldn't find the log you referred to, but I recalled Petticoat Lane which isn't far from North Haverhill on Rte 10, which I'm guessing is where he was when he was dispatched. Wherever he was, he took Swiftwater Road and Goose Lane to get to Rte 112 because he overtook and passed the hospital employee on Goose Lane who had just gotten off work at Cottage Hospital. Where did you get that log?
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Mason
Paducah, KY
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peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
Mason
Faith reported hearing the accident at the weather barn at 1927. It was initially misreported in the media as being 7p.m.
If there was a first accident involving Maura, Anne heard that there was an accident at 7.m., but this was not at the weather barn...
Just trying to be clear Maura did not sit in her car 40 minutes at the weather barn, Faith states she was there about 5 minutes before the SBD came along, and he stayed for about 5 minutes...this has the occupant of the vehicle about 10 minutes at the weather barn, as far as I know...which maybe wrong but Faith called at 1927 to 911
hate to be picky but we must keep straight the time, and not give out false information, there is enough of that without adding to the problem...
no offense meant
p.s. have not ignored your post about Smith travelling from Petticoat Lane, still trying to figure it out...later I know the dispatch log says FW called 911 at 7:27 pm, but everything I've read, including Maribeth Conway's article in the Whitman-Hanson Express says FW heard the thump at 7 pm and she called 911 at 7:27 pm. This is the first time I've heard the accident was at 7:27 pm. Are you sure? Where did you read that?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Wowzer wrote: <quoted text>
By all means keep on beating that horse Peri if you think it will help. After all it's only been beat for 5 years.
I know where Whitcherville is however you are saying Which-ever-ville. Sorry I misunderstood.
I must have missed the info on your comment...***Let us be clear that the police found holes in his story.***
I thought the police found the CW's story to be reliable and that is why they had another search in the area where he claimed to have seen a person on the road. When did they find holes in his story? Where is the source of that information?
I never said CW definitely came down BHR. I asked as a question what if he came down BHR.Since it was a question and not a fact there is no source of information. Wowzer: OK your assuming he came down 116. Sorry about the Whicherville, and Whicheverville mistake, I've made jokes about the place using the latter and that is what stuck in my mind... Intially the police did believe him, however, later it was stated on the MMM forum (whether fact or not) that they searched his trailer, and also he was given a polygraph, this says that they found some holes in his store. He initially stated that he was at home, watching TV. Too his timing is way off, if he left Franconia at 7 p.m. he could not have seen a youth near the 116/112 at 8:00 p.m., unless he went somewhere else after he left work, it could not have taken him an hour to drive that distance. no doubt I will be corrected if wrong, no fear there, about the search and polygraph, whether this was posted or p.m. to be by someone he repeated this information to, I cannot remember. Does anyone else remember, knowing that the police found his story suspect?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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sorry Wowzer: meant to say your assuming he came down Bradley Hill Road....sorry getting tired
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Mason wrote: <quoted text>
I know the dispatch log says FW called 911 at 7:27 pm, but everything I've read, including Maribeth Conway's article in the Whitman-Hanson Express says FW heard the thump at 7 pm and she called 911 at 7:27 pm.
This is the first time I've heard the accident was at 7:27 pm. Are you sure? Where did you read that? Mason Gee didn't notice that Maribeth Conway's ariticle stated that the accident was at 7 p.m. at the weather barn. All the initial reports of an accident stated the accident occured at 7 p.m. however, this was in error, or so I thought... However, Faith states (paraphrased)she heard a car engine acclerate, and a thump and called 911 and 911 has call coming through at 1926-1927 forgotten, no log to check... Columbo or Weeper can you give us please the correct time that Faith heard the accident..and the time Faith reported it... I am sure that the first accident that Anne heard at 7 p.m. was not at the weather barn...can you correct me Anne. If I have this information mixed up, I might as well quit, because this means I have misunderstood everything... Have worked this time thing for over 4 years and thought I had it down...
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
Charlottetown, Canada
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Maribeth Conway did report that Faith Westman heard the thump shortly after 7 p.m. however this does not mean that the accident occured then as it might be in error...
Will wait for one of the good detectives to answer
did find this in the article....
Meanwhile Butch Atwood backed his school bus into his driveway and went inside to call the police. He had difficulty reaching the 911 operator due to busy phone circuits. Atwood eventually got through to the Hanover Regional Dispatch Center, which in turn alerted the Grafton County Sheriff's department at 7:43 p.m., 16 minutes after Faith Westman's original call.
Atwood spoke to the 911 operator from the front porch of his house. He could see the road, but Maura's car was not in his line of sight. As he spoke, a few cars passed by but Atwood was not able to identify any of them.
good night, will look tomorrow re accident time
p.s.if it was shortly after 7 this changes everything, this could then be the call that Anne heard and also gives plenty of time for other scenarios to occur...
what it doesn't give time for is an earlier accident on Goose Lane or futher down the 112
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Detective Columbo
Littleton, NH
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Judged:
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16 minutes......less the time from when Faith called 911 and Butch came by, talked to the driver for 2 to 3 min. go park bus, walk to house, call 911.
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