Where is MAURA MURRAY

Also - I wanted to point out that serial killers/rapists - have above average IQ, usually married and lead normal lifes. I don't think anyone of us could say - our neighbor would never do that.

case in point.......... Ted Bundy - good looking charismatic - attorney...... Volunteered on the rape hotline. Ann Rule had NO CLUE. Everyone was shocked.

Lake Sammamish - where he abudcted girls - is not a remote lake. For those outside the area - This is where Microsoft has their campus - granted this was before MS. It has always been upper middle class area. This is not out in the boonies... It is right off Interstate 90.

These are not your normal criminals - analytical - plan things out...... So. with that said not bashing NH - they are just as likely to have one living close by as I am here in Seattle. Odds are here in my office there a few rapists - 32 stories.. sad but true - there are just bad apples and not one town or community is immune - some people are just wired differently. Scary but true.

Wowzer wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not mad with anyone or anything. And who are you to state that I am? Just sick and tired of seeing new ideas, questions and new scenerios grabbed and dragged down the long going nowhere path by a certain few. It's a public forum. People can have different ideas and opinions. Let them without attacking or intimidating them!

Show me where I have done that please cause I don't recall ever attacking anyone. I do what everyone else does and that is post questions and try to help clarify if someone has information that I know is incorrect. Let's get it straight, you wrote first with "what does this have to do with what I posted. I was commenting on the article that YOU put the link to, not your questions. Can I not do that? Anyway, this forum has gotten ugly and I am done with it. Good luck finding Maura! 5 years "we don't have the answers"

Snowy White wrote:

Just chiming in, John.
I am comfortable with the possible Vasi/accident connection to Maura and the Saturn and those circumstances being a reasonable explanation for her reaction to the call received while she was at work.
I, too, have considered that someone else may have accompanied her in the car...possibly drinking the liquor, as well.
I am less comfortable filling in the blanks, as you have...as to the relationship of that person to Maura.

Thanks for your response. I agree that that element concerning the nature of their relationship is more of a leap. I came to it because it helps to explain why Maura's reaction to the accident in the hypothesized scenario was not simply to go to the police. In that scenario, she would have to have had some intimate connection to the other party to cover for him.

But your point is well taken. All we can do is knead the facts, consider ideas and make guesses. I hope new information will come to light.

Eurobserver wrote:

Hello all,
I shall probably be sounding like the proverbial parrot by now, but here goes again:
Witness T.M. has apparently stated that he from the window of his home actually saw how the Saturn was being wilfully reversed into the snowbank on Rte 112 where it was later found.
This leads me to believe that the Saturn most likely arrived at this spot from the east (Bradley Hill Road or Rte 112 East), in order for its driver to perform that kind of reversing manouevre.
If the witness statement of T.M. is correct, then all this must surely imply that it for some reason was important for the driver of the Saturn to stage the accident close to several houses rather than in the wilderness a mile or so further east along Rte 112.
Apparently, the person(s) who faked the accident deemed it important enough for the Saturn to be found and identified to risk being seen doing so by witnesses nearby.
And, by all accounts, there was a witness in the shape of T.M.
Any ideas, comments?

These are good ideas, thanks for sharing them.

I come down on the side of the car getting to the scene from the west (thus moving east). This because the investigating officer so stated in terms of track marks and damage to the tree. Given that sharp curve it would be hard to confuse the phsyics: it was likely very obvious what had happenned. Of course, the staging of the accident could have been elaborate enough to trick the police officer, who likely would not have been on the look out for such trickery.

The other reason, I come down on the side of the car moving east at the time is that it is difficult to find a motive for the stagers (if it was staged) to disguise the direction the car was moving in. But, with the facts as sketchy as they are ... who knows.

Thanks again for your thoughtful post.

I know a helluva lot about forensics, so trust me when I say this.

A lab tech moistens a swab with distilled water and dabs at a discreet portion of the blood stain and applies a presumptive test for blood and, if the result is positive, she repeats the process with another moistened swab and conducts another presumptive test for human blood. If that result also is positive, then she must do a confirmatory test for human blood. If that result also is positive, then she obtains another swabbed sample and places it in a test tube. She adds distilled water and spins it out transferring the essence to a microscope slide, which she stains to make the cellular matter easy to see and she examines the slide with a microscope to identify the types of cells present.

Only after all of these steps have been completed would she run a DNA test and she would not have to run the complete crime lab panoply of genetic sites to develop a full profile. She could PCR the DQ Alpha gene and polymarkers as a sort of screening test to include or exclude Maura as the source (assuming she had a buchle swab sample from each of Maura's parents to use for comparison purposes).

I've had a Canadian lab do that sort of testing for me in cases that I've handled for less than $1,000. This was 10 years ago, so the price would be higher now.

Okay, I'll ask the question again. Why is Fred Murray complaining about the PIs not testing the blood stained carpet?

While I'm at it, did Shack lie when she said the blood was menstrual blood? If she knew what it was, who told her and when did they tell her? How did they know, unless the sample had been tested?

WTF is going on here??????????

I am extremely pissed off with the bullshit going on here.

I want some goddamn answers and I want them now!!!!!!!!!!

Fred Leatherman

Snowy - I will post the cell info later today. :-)

Since Fred Murray was an avid runner and hiker - I doubt he smoked.

Sara
I do hope you stay - all of our posts have certain tones - some more helpful, caring - questionable and negative at times. Just know it is alot of different people with different personality types - just SOB - forget who wrote that one but it means 'scroll on by' when you see a negative nelly pop up. I know hard to do . i always end up replying but I am trying to get better. I just can't help it when - not even 24 hours later - and now we have abortion theories - her dad helped her?
They ruled out her dad and Billy....... and their phone records would have easily shown exactly where they were!!

Weeper wrote:

The "dog-hit" at the A-frame was stated as "possibly being minsterl secretions" from a laundry hamper (in the closet)on the second floor or any blood/human secretions from clothing "near/under" a washing machine on the first floor. The dogs hit on both locations and the carpet was removed from the first floor. We handled this material as is expected in our field and sent half to the NHSP. We never expect any return information from the LE community nor do we want it. The reasons for this have been stated earlier.
You all need to keep in mind that in the process of a criminal "on-going investigation" even "public information" can be(and often is)witheld from public scrutiny. If you can't understand the reasoning for this, take up needle-point rather than investigations. I'm not being funny about this, I mean it.
Respectfully
Weeper

Mason,

Please do not accuse Shack of being a liar.

Mason wrote:

I keep returning to my good-samaritan theory. I suspect Maura was pregnant and Billy wasn't the father. I suspect the father wanted her to get an abortion, but she had strong religious beliefs against abortion. I don't believe she felt like she could discuss the matter with anyone she knew and this is why she felt compelled to get away from her daily routine to have time to decide what to do.
I propose that the hospital employee may have been a kindly older woman, possibly a nurse wearing scrubs, and when she stopped and offered Maura a ride, Maura felt safe and accepted. I suspect Maura broke down and spilled her guts later that evening at the woman's home and the woman helped her reach a decision and protected her through her network of acquaintances and friends. I think Maura kept the baby and decided to let Billy and her family believe she was dead rather than tell them what happened.

As a woman, it is counter intuitive to me that confirmation of pregnancy and an intended abortion is necessarily a reason to run.
A nursing student, older than 18, Maura would have many options from which to choose in MA.

It cannot be presumed who the father might be; nor has anyone supplied any confirmation, to my knowledge, about Maura's religious affiliation or the strength of her beliefs.

Importantly, no one has confirmed that Maura's demeanor was substantially different before THE phone call...which pushes me more to the Vasi-hit-and-run potential than to pregnancy.

If she was aware of a pregnancy at the party preceding her disappearance...an innate, nurturing response might be not to over-drink, regardless of whether an abortion was intended.

Pregnancy, IMO, is more solvable and less of an immediate crisis than a possible hit-and-run with bodily injury.

Dawn wrote:

Snowy - I will post the cell info later today.:-)

No hurry at all...but will be helpful to isolate 2004 from the confusion of the capabilities of cells today...and only if it is not time-consuming for you.
Many thanks.

For what it is worth, I do not believe that Weeper is who his recent posts have tried to suggest he is.

At first, I thought some of these of the wall posts were funny. But now I find it annoying as I think there are people posting here who have really sensible and interesting things to say.

ankle itch....... interesting.

elsewherebriefly wrote:

<quoted text>
Mason,
Please do not accuse Shack of being a liar.

EB,

I forgot about Weeper's reference and I apologize for stating that she might have lied. I will PM her on the other site to make sure she sees my apology.

I did not really believe she had lied because I was and remain pretty certain the blood stain was tested and she knew the result. Weeper's post confirms my belief.

Since the sample was tested, why did Fred Murray claim that the PIs haven't tested it? I find it hard to believe that they had it tested and didn't tell him the result.

Specifically, if he knew it was tested and he knew the result, why did he claim that the PIs never tested the sample?

Fred Leatherman

Not sure where the article is - but Fred did state it had not been tested and since went missing. If I recall they didn't have storage capacity. Sanderson111 sent me a PDF of all of the files he has collected. I will look to see if it is in there.

Mason wrote:

<quoted text><text deleted> Since the sample was tested, why did Fred Murray claim that the PIs haven't tested it? I find it hard to believe that they had it tested and didn't tell him the result. <text deleted> Fred Leatherman

Mr. Leatherman,

With all due respect, why do you find it difficult in believing that Mr. Murray would not have been made aware of the results? This is, of course, going on the premise that the carpet indeed was tested. Let's see:

ATM video? Never seen by family.

Alleged liquor receipt(s)? Never seen by family.

Alleged DNA testing of the airbags from car? This testing, if indeed performed, never told to the family. Results of alleged testing? Never told to family.

This information of alleged DNA testing of airbags came from a citizen from the area who has been privy to area law enforcement information. On several different scales.

Interesting. When Mr. Lindsley made an inquiry of area law enforcement for his 5-year disappearance article on Maura Murray - he was directed to State Police.

Guess they became tired after sharing their information with an area citizen.

Just because Fred Murray is the father of Maura Murray does not make him privy to same said information.

I would think in your esteemed profession this would not be of such a surprise to you.

Dawn wrote:

Not sure where the article is - but Fred did state it had not been tested and since went missing. If I recall they didn't have storage capacity. Sanderson111 sent me a PDF of all of the files he has collected. I will look to see if it is in there.

I read that same thing, but I don't remember where. Fred said those things. It was that ancilliary investigative team that said they did not have the storage capacity for such evidence or the capacity to test it. They claimed they never had their half. I don't recall reading a statement that it had been lost, per se.

Lady Gray wrote:

<quoted text>
Mr. Leatherman,
With all due respect, why do you find it difficult in believing that Mr. Murray would not have been made aware of the results? This is, of course, going on the premise that the carpet indeed was tested. Let's see:
ATM video? Never seen by family.
Alleged liquor receipt(s)? Never seen by family.
Alleged DNA testing of the airbags from car? This testing, if indeed performed, never told to the family. Results of alleged testing? Never told to family.
This information of alleged DNA testing of airbags came from a citizen from the area who has been privy to area law enforcement information. On several different scales.
Interesting. When Mr. Lindsley made an inquiry of area law enforcement for his 5-year disappearance article on Maura Murray - he was directed to State Police.
Guess they became tired after sharing their information with an area citizen.
Just because Fred Murray is the father of Maura Murray does not make him privy to same said information.
I would think in your esteemed profession this would not be of such a surprise to you.

LG,

LE would not tell him anything. I wasn't referring to them. I was referring to him complaining about the PIs not testing the sample they retained. Apparently, they did and, according to the usual procedure, they would have arranged for it to be tested with his consent and he would have paid for it.

How could he not know the result?

Do you now understand what and why I am asking?

Fred Leatherman

As Elsewhere Briefly noted a few messages back, Weeper disclosed that the blood on the carpet was menstrual blood. This suggests that the source of the blood did not bleed out and die. In other words, the PIs ruled out homicide as the explanation for the blood and likely ruled out Maura as the source of the blood as well since a lab must have analyzed the blood stain.

Therefore, the whole story about the cadaver dogs going bonkers and LE not testing the sample that the PIs gave them is irrelevant.

Why isn't that conclusion obvious to everyone and why is Fred Murray still talking about the matter?

Fred Leatherman

Snowy White wrote:

Just chiming in, John.
I am comfortable with the possible Vasi/accident connection to Maura and the Saturn and those circumstances being a reasonable explanation for her reaction to the call received while she was at work.
I, too, have considered that someone else may have accompanied her in the car...possibly drinking the liquor, as well.
I am less comfortable filling in the blanks, as you have...as to the relationship of that person to Maura.

The once nutty Vasi scenario is now mainstream enough to have a little confidence in?

If you are "less comfortable filling in the blanks" than the way John has filled them in (with a secret male lover), does that still mean you think Maura was protecting someone?

Just wondering. Thanks.