Where is MAURA MURRAY

Beagle wrote:

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Okay, basement it is. Maybe bomb shelter.
Perhaps check local papers Monday/Tuesday for what official was in area? Someone from Haverhill or from Concord? Good thinking, Quija.

I left out a word --- i meant to say that this deputy often drove an official VEHICLE home. over and out.

Quija,

Would that official vehicle have been the "official looking" and, as far as I know, unidentified SUV reportedly being seen by Maura´s Saturn at the Weathered Barn curve?

Thanks!

But what happens to the pickup truck driver in this scenario? Wouldn't he report it?

Also, is there any possibility that the person who saw the red pickup truck that night would recognize it if shown a photo of it?

What if a photo of the red pickup truck that's in Bernardston were available? Could someone show it to the person who saw the red pickup truck at Swiftwater that night and see if there's a resemblance? Just a thought.

Beagle, I do not know RO but maybe someone here does. It might be something to forward to LE in charge though. Just my two cents.

1Anne wrote:

Beagle, I do not know RO but maybe someone here does. It might be something to forward to LE in charge though. Just my two cents.

Normally, that would be a good idea, except LE and I aren't exactly on speaking terms these days. The more I think about it, the more I like your and Advocate's idea of a chain-towed Saturn. Makes a lot of sense. I also like Quija's idea of an official vehicle possibly striking Maura, but not sure what would happen to the driver of the red pickup at this point. Overall, great thinking.

I do know that a few months ago the person who owns the red pickup truck in Bernardston was mentioned in the same thread (totally unrelated topic) with someone located not far from the crash scene. I know he works in Amherst near the old location of a gallery and he has Mondays off.

Eurobserver wrote:

I´m still thinking about the possible implications if we were to assume that the SBD may actually never have seen a young lady at the Saturn - perhaps he didn´t even see anybody at all by the car?

Well, there was definitely "someone" at the Saturn. The Westmans did see a person there talking with the SBD when he stopped, and after the SBD drove on to his house, another witness saw activity around the rear of the Saturn (trunk lights going on and off, something like that). Whether the person with the Saturn was a woman or a man I think was not clear to the Westmans or the other witness.

As to the SBD's veracity ... because he said he had been with law enforcement in Taunton, MA in the past, and he was never a police officer, pretty much everyone has viewed this as a lie and therefore it seemed a good idea to question anything else he said. However, back in October of last year on the MMM forum, one of the posters (mcsmom) said that in fact, the SBD at one time had been in a peripheral department associated with law enforcement in Taunton, MA. So, the SBD may not have been lying at all about that -- kind of depends on how he said it ... if he said "I've worked with the police before in Taunton", then in his view he is telling the truth, not realizing a reporter might interpret that as SBD saying he had BEEN a police officer.

I've been inclined from the beginning to accept what the SBD said as being the truth, that he did see a young woman at the Saturn. And in all likelihood, that young woman was Maura.

Beagle, How did you EVER find that NH/gallery/etc. connection?

My statement about a deputy's sheriff living up the road and often driving an official vehicle home came from the MMM site. Don't know if he was there that night, anything, dunno.

RO, having seen the red truck in feb 2004, and having been involved with her own serious tragedies, looked through pics of pickup trucks in the PAST YEAR and i think she said she was able to ID one like it. I thought she mentioned: small back window,(older model?), wood (either siding or flat-bed), as well as the activities of the driver, slowing on the hill, scanning her, pulling into the parking lot, turning, retracing path, maybe a second person in the vehicle... I never was able to figure out if it had wood side slats/racks, but i vaguely remember something being said about a Ford 350(???) being similar. This all needs verifying.

I am obviously so slow sometimes. Now I get it. Vasi hit-and-run; Maura hit-and-run; beagle hit-and-run. Okay. I can take a hint! Back to the bomb shelter.:-)

Quija wrote:

Beagle, How did you EVER find that NH/gallery/etc. connection?

Legwork.

I looked at galleries and looked at what was near them and put it together with what I knew from the MMM site. I never QUITE made it to the one in SW, though. Would be nice if they could release the name of the gallery, but I can understand why they don't. I think.

Beagle, can you give any more clues about your Bernardston connection? Doubt you have to worry about another beagle hit-and-run.

Serious thoughts about Maura.... The more we all go over and over everything, the more I'm sadly sure that if Maura was alive and "ok", she'd have contacted her loved ones. I also feel it's sad that the most simple solution (LE's initial response, as well as Fred's and maybe Billy's) was that Maura was in despair, but probably hoping to make it to a motel that night before she took any action to hurt herself.

If she was despondent enough to want to end her life, she brought tokens with her of people she loved, maybe for comfort, maybe as a way of saying goodbye. All i remember of these tokens is: a book about hiking --- hiking, of course, she connected with her dad, a bookmark pic of her younger bro in Little League, a large watch (???dunno for sure) from her dad, the stuffed animal from Billy, jewelry from (?? can't remember, Sharon or her grandmom?), gloves from Sharon, an emergency kit from Sharon, and a small selection of other parts of her life --- running stuff, nursing stuff.

A long time ago a poster who may have been hurtful and no longer welcome at the mmm forum did express his belief that Maura was heading to a motel to surround herself with memories of the people she cared about and to end her despair. I didn't see those posts. And i hope her family doesn't read this.

Since we haven't heard from many people at all that Maura knew, maybe other people closer to her have this same feeling, but know they shouldn't post it?

whiston, could Maura have gotten the Salamone's tel number from Fred over the weekend? Maybe he didn't put all the pieces (and upsets of Maura's) all together...

Still wonder why LE would state in a log that they had placed calls to Fred Monday night, Tuesday (at least twice, maybe a third time in the a.m., can't remember) and Fred only found one message when he got home dinnertime tuesday. Was LE covering themselves? Or did Fred have an idea Maura was up there to ditch the car, but expected her to call or return, and sort of expected calls about an abandoned car? If that's the case, it's a hellish situation, certainly not made any better by airing the possibility here...

I don't want to be like OH MY, accusing everyone of things, but I wonder if there was a little more that Maura's dad knew about plans for the Saturn than he said. There wasn't a good relationship between Fred and LE and if they thought he knew a little more he didn't say, well, that wouldn't've helped the relationship any.

Although 4-1/2 years have passed, i still wonder if they've searched all those most dense brush areas north-northwest of Atwood's old house? For a place a person would go NOT to be found.

Beagle wrote:

<quoted text>
Legwork.
I looked at galleries and looked at what was near them and put it together with what I knew from the MMM site. I never QUITE made it to the one in SW, though. Would be nice if they could release the name of the gallery, but I can understand why they don't. I think.

okay, legwork! my long post was written before i finally saw yours.

Advocator,

Regarding your recent post:

Yes, according to the available witness reports (Mr & Mrs W opposite the "crash" site) it seems likely that a person was seen at the Saturn.

However, we have no known other witness report(s) save that of the schoolbus driver that there was specifically a young lady sitting in the driver´s seat of the Saturn.

Although this may be likely to assume, we can not really say with absolute certainty that it is an established fact that there was indeed a young lady resembling Maura in/by the Saturn.

The SBD´s witness account is, as far as we know, totally uncorroborated.
Please, correct me if I´m wrong on this point.

Ouiija, Although all possibilities should be considered and rendered repeatedly, I personally believe Maura never came to commit suicide. As far as Dad and Billy knowing more than they thought. This would ring true for any traumatic situation they were thrust into. We all have great hindsight. It is not that I dismiss this idea out of hand, it is with careful consideration of all the information available.

Beagle & Quija,

RO posted on Maura's forum that she found a pick-up like the one she saw that nigth and was going to muster up the courage to take a photograph of it. We've not heard from her since.

I have always believed that she was added to the list of wintnesses in this case shortly after that posting.

Just my belief, that's all.

Thanks Quija for letting me know about Cottage Hospital.

Quija,

Although I´ve come to very much respect your postings, I´m sorry to have to say that I honestly find the implications of your most recent post to be very hurtful for Maura´s poor, suffering family. Yes, I hope that they don´t read that post of yours. Sorry!

As for Maura being physically well, but not making herself known to her family is not quite as impossible and improbable as it might seem to be.

Please, look up the expression "Dissociative Fugue" on the web (there is a good explanation of this syndrome on Wikipedia) and you will see what I mean by that. I´ve mentioned this before on this forum, without it ever to my knowledge having been commented upon.

Thanks!

In the dog house, are we?

Eurobserver wrote:

Quija,
Although I´ve come to very much respect your postings, I´m sorry to have to say that I honestly find the implications of your most recent post to be very hurtful for Maura´s poor, suffering family. Yes, I hope that they don´t read that post of yours. Sorry!

I agree that UNNECCESARILY hurting the Murray family, and any of those really close to Maura, is wrong. No doubt about it. And I really don't think anyone here would deliberately do that.

But this forum would probably not even exist if it were not for the relentless efforts of the Murray family to keep the online story of Maura's disappearance very, very public.

In ceaselessly soliciting the public's help via an online DISCUSSION board, they must accept the fact that the discussion may not always be what suits them. That's the down side of maintaining an extremely public and often abrasive public relations policy. Don't go in the kitchen if you can't stand the heat.

Beyond that, and in some ways, more importantly, there is often the tendency to confuse "finding Maura" with solving a crime. The two are different from one another. Obviously, the family - and, I would guess, everyone else who is a regular on this board, or was on the MMM board - would like to see Maura, alive or not, reunited with her family. That really goes without saying. No one wishes any disrespect in that regard, I would hope.

But there is also the matter of a crime. In the world of ciminal justice, the crime is not particularly against "the family." It is against the state. That's why, hopefully, one day there will be a court case of "New Hamshire v. John Doe." If a crime, was, in fact, committed. We really don't know that for sure yet.

In other words, we are all less safe and the quality of our lives diminshed if a crime against even a total stranger is committed. More so if the crime is a capital one that remains unsolved.

That's why a public discussion can work both ways for the family. It may hurt them emotionally, but it may help find Maura and, if a crime was committed, bring the perpetrator to justice.

The Murray family can, at any time, simply post on this forum a description of what they would prefer to read. If they haven't, then it's difficult to know how to dig up information that may help authorities solve a crime. You have go where the trail leads. I doubt very many of us here are trained detectives. We do what we can under the umbrella of a public forum.

If the family, or LE, for that matter, wishes the public discussion to cease, the I, for one, would probably honor that. I'm not sure it's a good idea, or even a do-able idea, but it has to come from the family and LE. They are always welcome to post something to that effect. So far, they do not appear so inclined. And possibly for very good reasons. We are all in the dark about a lot of this - the family, the posters, all of us. And it will probably stay that way for a while longer, too.

Just my 15 cents.

Beagle,

Your comment is a fair one as regards "the other side of the coin". In fact, I agree with many of your points.

The fact that this forum is never, to our knowledge, actually addressed by either the Murray family or LE makes the situation even more difficult to handle.

Can we all just please agree to give matters a careful consideration before we post something here which may unnecessarily distress Maura´s family.

It´s all a very thin line to tread and a kind of delicate balancing act between furthering Maura´s cause and the risk of hurting her family.
Let´s all try to keep this in mind.

Thank you all.

Hello all,
Please, take some time to read the following excerpt from www.merck.com .
I think this may well have a bearing on Maura´s case. Thank you.
From the site of www.merck.com :
Dissociative Fugue
Dissociative fugue is a disorder in which one or more episodes of sudden, unexpected, and purposeful travel from home (fugue) occur, during which a person cannot remember some or all of his past life.
Dissociative fugue affects about 2 of 1,000 people in the United States. It is much more common in people who have been in wars, accidents, or natural disasters.
Causes
The causes of dissociative fugue are similar to those of dissociative amnesia. Dissociative fugue is often mistaken for malingering, because both conditions may occur under circumstances that a person might understandably wish to evade. However, dissociative fugue occurs spontaneously and is not faked. Malingering is a state in which a person feigns illness because it removes him from accountability for his actions, gives him an excuse to avoid responsibilities, or reduces his exposure to a known hazard, such as a dangerous job assignment. Many fugues seem to represent a disguised wish fulfillment (for example, an escape from overwhelming stresses, such as divorce or financial ruin). Other fugues are related to feelings of rejection or separation, or they may protect the person from suicidal or homicidal impulses.
When dissociative fugue recurs more than a few times, the person usually has an underlying dissociative identity disorder.
Symptoms and Diagnosis
A fugue may last from hours to weeks or months, or occasionally even longer. A person in a fugue state, having lost his customary identity, usually disappears from his usual haunts, leaving his family and job. If the fugue is brief, the person may appear simply to have missed some work or come home late or, if confused, may come to the attention of medical or legal authorities. If the fugue lasts several days or longer, the person may travel far from home and begin a new job with a new identity, unaware of any change in his life. During the fugue, the person may appear normal and attract no attention. However, at some point, the person may become aware of the memory loss (amnesia) or confused about his identity.
Often the person has no symptoms or is only mildly confused during the fugue. However, when the fugue ends, the person may experience depression, discomfort, grief, shame, intense conflict, and suicidal or aggressive impulses.
A doctor may suspect dissociative fugue when a person seems confused about his identity or is puzzled about his past, or when confrontations challenge the person's new identity or absence of one. The doctor makes the diagnosis by carefully reviewing the person's symptoms and performing a physical examination to exclude physical disorders that might be contributing to or causing memory loss. A psychologic examination is also performed.
Sometimes dissociative fugue cannot be diagnosed until the person abruptly returns to his pre-fugue identity and is distressed to find himself in unfamiliar circumstances. The diagnosis is usually made retroactively by a doctor reviewing the person's history and collecting information that documents the circumstances before the person left home, the travel itself, and the establishment of an alternate life.
Treatment and Prognosis
Most fugues last for hours or days and disappear on their own. Dissociative fugue is treated much the same as dissociative amnesia, and treatment may include the use of hypnosis or drug-facilitated interviews (see Amnesia and Related Disorders: Treatment and Prognosis). However, efforts to restore memories of the fugue period usually are unsuccessful. A therapist may help the person to explore his patterns of handling the types of situations, conflicts, and moods that triggered (precipitated) the fugue episode to prevent subsequent fugue behavior.