Where is MAURA MURRAY

Ouiija, In my opinion there is nothing new whatsoever on this thread/forum. Since you have followed along, please enlighten me.

I am not sure why the Murray family forum would want to subject themselves to further harrassement by posters with alternative objectives. Just my 2 cents.

Ouiija, if you truly believe Maura committed suicide, please pursue, as the family has already received the limit of criticism, in other words, it makes no difference now.

Is the object here to end the public forum on Maura. I believe that is a truth.

1Anne wrote:

Ouiija, In my opinion there is nothing new whatsoever on this thread/forum. Since you have followed along, please enlighten me.

Anne, it was just the way Beagle phrased it that made me realize that the more we (I) talk about suicide, the easier it would be for LE to let the investigation of criminal neighbors, etc. go. Beagle was right --- if, God forbid, Maura took her own life, there is far less we can do to investigate that except, as he said, by physical searching, so it makes more sense to focus on the criminal side of what might've happened, and make the physical search for Maura secondary. It's more important to find a criminal than to search the woods, even if Maura were to be found there. I wish, however, I could just go through the private property woods myself, but that's inappropriate and illegal, etc.

Correct -- no news yet from the church in Barton, VT. Actually I had called again today, left a detailed message asking whether or not a Raykel/Raquel/Rachel had signed the church guestbook on Sunday, June 19 (Father's Day) 2005. Figured maybe them having an idea what I'm calling about might generate a response.

1Anne wrote:

I am not sure why the Murray family forum would want to subject themselves to further harrassement by posters with alternative objectives. Just my 2 cents.
Ouiija, if you truly believe Maura committed suicide, please pursue, as the family has already received the limit of criticism, in other words, it makes no difference now.
Is the object here to end the public forum on Maura. I believe that is a truth.

I think at this point, this forum should be turned into a "Support Forum" for Maura's family. That would not be hurtful.

Some here are cynical and working with an adjenda to end all search. Sorry, it will not happen because of posts here. I will not quit until we find out what really happened to Maura, not what is orchestrated here.

Quija wrote:

<quoted text>
Anne, it was just the way Beagle phrased it that made me realize that the more we (I) talk about suicide, the easier it would be for LE to let the investigation of criminal neighbors, etc. go. Beagle was right --- if, God forbid, Maura took her own life, there is far less we can do to investigate that except, as he said, by physical searching, so it makes more sense to focus on the criminal side of what might've happened, and make the physical search for Maura secondary. It's more important to find a criminal than to search the woods, even if Maura were to be found there. I wish, however, I could just go through the private property woods myself, but that's inappropriate and illegal, etc.

Quija, that's roughly what I had in mind. Not to put too fine a point on it, however, I would not make the physical search SECONDARY as much as I might believe that an online forum better corresponds to a more "criminal" scenario than a suicidal one.

If suicide, then search the ground. If criminal, then do the requisite research and spread out possible scenarios. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive. Myself, I've kind of run out of ideas. I'm pooped out and looking forward to a nice weekend.

Goodness Gracious Ouiija, give me a break! Forget the Murray family for a moment, I just wish you to stop using them for martrydom and an escape. Can it be any clearer, whatever you believe, I am more than willing to listen to. I simply won't sit by and watch the MMM board bashed. To top it off, you wish they left the board available. Give me a break!

1Anne wrote:

Some here are cynical and working with an adjenda to end all search. Sorry, it will not happen because of posts here. I will not quit until we find out what really happened to Maura, not what is orchestrated here.

In all respectful seriousness, what is it that is "orchestrated" on this board? Can you please give some examples? How do the posts on this board deliberately discourage the search for Maura? Where do you think this effort originates? Who is behind it? Why are they doing it?

I'm not trying to be a pain. I genuinely don't know what effort it is you refer to and I'd like to learn and understand your point of view. This is just a neutral, honest question. Thank you.

1Anne wrote:

Some here are cynical and working with an adjenda to end all search. Sorry, it will not happen because of posts here. I will not quit until we find out what really happened to Maura, not what is orchestrated here.

Anne, you are reading me wrong. I was not being cynical. That post was brief regarding this forum becoming a support forum for the family, but I meant it. I really meant it. They do not need to read wild scenarios for years into the future. But since this is such a public case, there has to be another place for people to toss around ideas, in a way the family is protected from. This still sounds "cynical", but I do think this particular forum should be changed to support or dropped. Maybe a different one can be started.

1Anne wrote:

Goodness Gracious Ouiija, give me a break! Forget the Murray family for a moment, I just wish you to stop using them for martrydom and an escape. Can it be any clearer, whatever you believe, I am more than willing to listen to. I simply won't sit by and watch the MMM board bashed. To top it off, you wish they left the board available. Give me a break!

I don't think i said i wished they left the board available. I will recheck my posts, tho.

1Anne wrote:

Some here are cynical and working with an adjenda to end all search. Sorry, it will not happen because of posts here. I will not quit until we find out what really happened to Maura, not what is orchestrated here.

I thought that everyone here WAS trying to search for Maura. Each poster checking out things that seemed to be key to him or her. I don't understand what you are saying. I thought Maura's state of mind was important to investigate and anything relevant about the Saturn from way back in Amherst --- was it already damaged a bit, was it about to be traded in, why wasn't it cleaned out for a trade-in, and more --- the parts concerning Fred you must see as inflammatory?

Beagle wrote:

<quoted text>Quija, that's roughly what I had in mind. Not to put too fine a point on it, however, I would not make the physical search SECONDARY as much as I might believe that an online forum better corresponds to a more "criminal" scenario than a suicidal one.
If suicide, then search the ground. If criminal, then do the requisite research and spread out possible scenarios. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive. Myself, I've kind of run out Beagleof ideas. I'm pooped out and looking forward to a nice weekend.

Beagle, of course, there are no absolutes here and you certainly entertain your ways with the direction you want to take. I am looking forward to a relaxing weekend also.

Advocator, that is a very plausible scenario. Many variables are possible, to be sure, but as a mechanism, that absolutely makes more sense than just about anything I've heard at any point in time. Thank you.

Advocator,

Many thanks for your kind information regarding your call to the Barton,VT, church.
Also many thanks for being in touch with the church again and leaving another message. This is just the kind of action which might hopefully lead somewhere with some real results.

Another question for you Advocator (always our level-headed contributor here, which I mean as an offering of sincere praise):

What do you (and all others, of course) think of my previous suggestion as regards at least a temporary shift of our discussions from Amherst and Haverhill to Maura´s time at West Point?

I do think that such an effort may well provide worthwhile. Ideas, anybody?

Otherwise, I must admit to feeling at a loss as for understanding what´s really been going on here on this board for the last few hours. I haven´t got a clue, to be quite honest...

Yesterday things seemed to be moving in the right direction with a constructive attitude and many good ideas put forward by everybody.
Now this forum seems in danger of yet again falling to pieces. We seem to be reeling from one crisis to another.
Why???
Misunderstandings, inability to listen to different views, diverging opinions - please, explain...
I don´t consider myself altogether unintelligent, so I must be missing something here? Or...

Many thanks!

God made a lot of people.

sophie bean wrote:

Advocator, that is a very plausible scenario. Many variables are possible, to be sure, but as a mechanism, that absolutely makes more sense than just about anything I've heard at any point in time. Thank you.

Agreed.

Personally, I think this forum IS support for Maura's family, whether they read it or not. Everyone is here because they care, in one way or another, about Maura and the concerns of her disappearance. Some of that caring is personal, some of it more academic, but all of it has value. Seems to me that since her family have not received much (if any) support from LE in terms of what LE knows, what ideas LE may be pursuing, we in the discussion forum are giving the family a lot of support simply by openly sharing our thoughts, even those about what LE may or may not know.

The theory of suicide has never persuaded me very much, and I also think it is unlikely that Maura perished by the elements. I've been more inclined to think she left on her own, for her own reasons, and very possibly with the assistance of someone else.

Example: When I was in college, I suffered the personal loss of someone I loved dearly. This loss really knocked the pins out from under me in many ways. For the next 25 years, the factor of this loss essentially ran my life from behind the scenes, affecting my relationships, my finances, and so on. And no one I was close to knew any of this. Not my parents, not my siblings -- and our family is at least as close as Maura's seems to be. When the issue finally surfaced after 25 years, everyone was just stunned to find all of this out, as no one had any idea.

That's just to illustrate that even extremely close and loving families do not know everything about one another, and unknown matters may be powerfully affecting a family member while all on the surface seems fine on a day by day basis.

I've actually spoken to Helena Murray about this, and she DID mention it once on the other board. They KNOW that some of the things will be painful for them to read. They KNOW that some of the scenarios are truly, truly horrifying. And I believe, recalling, her response to that was

"Believe me. We've already thought of them." Not to say that we can't come up with new scenarios, but that....they KNOW that it's a possibility.

I remember specifically trying for days to gum up my courage to the point where I could ask if anyone had checked the trunk of the car for evidence that Maura or god forbid her body had spent time in it. I think that's when Helena and I had that conversation.

THE POINT I'M MAKING HERE IS THIS: as long as it's handled compassionately, and not gratuitously, they understand that we might discuss some graphic, awful, horrifying scenarios. And that one of them might be real. But we're not doing it to get cheap thrills (are we???) we're doing it to try to find out what really happened. And as long as we remain sensitive to the fact that Maura is not a character in a book or on TV, but someone's VERY REAL, BELOVED CHILD/FRIEND/SISTER/FIANCEE they understand that.

Fred has described, in some news articles, having to walk through underbrush and look under tarps and through trash bins. Do you think that's not about as graphic and horrifying an experience as a man could have, to search for his child? They don't want to be protected. They want Maura back.

Honestly--and it's just my however many cents it is on the current exchange rate of sympathy--but I truly believe that OUR COMMITMENT TO FINDING MAURA AND FINDING OUT WHAT HAPPENED IS THE STRONGEST FORM OF SUPPORT WE CAN OFFER THE MURRAYS AND RAUSCHES. I would think that knowing we remember her name every morning and are still out here trying to find her would bring them more comfort than anything.

The dog house, for sure.