Where is MAURA MURRAY

Benjamin Franklin wrote:

Since this is a speculative research forum with intent to construct a theory, and not a court of law, it boggles the mind that anyone would ever approach a disagreement in such an manner inappropriate to research.

Jesus Ben. You obviously haven't been following Sophie's posts much have you?

BTW, I am still in the process of reading it but your logic is looks excellant. Very good job.

Bill

Benjamin Franklin wrote:

Sophie - I don't know what your purpose is here. Your message gives me little reason to take you seriously. I don't see any purpose of your message besides causing diversion, creating arguments and chasing people away. That's why I no longer take you seriously nor will I spend any more effort on these efforts.

OOPS. I see I was wrong. You have caught on.

Very good post. Logical and very well thought out with excellant references.

I am sure it will mostly be ignored because most here are not looking for that.

Bill

Hello all,

I think it would be rather timely to once again remind ourselves that there are, to my knowledge, no publicly known observations of Maura of any kind between her supposedly leaving Amherst, MA, and the arrival of her car in Swiftwater, Haverhill, NH.

The last publicly known sightings of Maura are, as far as we know, the video recordings from the liquor store and the ATM Bank at or near Amherst, MA.

Apart from the notoriously "wavering" witness statements of the SBD (Mr A) at the Weathered Barn incident site in Swiftwater,NH, there is, as far as we know, no way to tell whether Maura in fact ever left Amherst or that she indeed was the driver of the Saturn at the incident site in Swiftwater.

Speaking of facts, I don´t think that it could be taken for granted that Maura was, in fact, the driver of the Saturn all the way or for even part of the way between Amherst, MA, and Swiftwater, NH.

Whether Maura was the victim of foul play or whether she vanished for other reasons more or less of her own volition, it would seem that - as far as we know - no one actually saw her leave Amherst, MA, in her Saturn car.

Again, we have no publicly known witness observations of Maura anywhere between Amherst and Swiftwater, and a highly questionable identification of the female driver of the Saturn by the SBD at the Weathered Barn incident site.

The more I think about all this, the less certain I feel of anything in this heart-wrenching case.

Let me say it again, anything not known to be a fact shouldn't be stated as a fact. I fail to see how that can be viewed as somehow contentious. Eurobserver just said the same thing in the post directly above.
It's absurd to view disagreement as "harsh" unless there are accusations, name-calling or other clearly offensive comments - I made none of the above, nor have I ever done so.
In my post which was criticized so harshly by the usual suspects, I was saying that all possibilities should be considered, and no stone (literally) left unturned. This is a "problem" in what way?
That said, "Ben" - you arrived here, posted a number of things as facts which are not facts, were corrected about them, and immediately reacted in high dudgeon. OK. We have seen this sort of thing before, quite a few times. I am frankly suspicious of it.
Thank you, Eurobserver, for noting the things that have been assumed by many of us to be "fact" - and for reminding us that they are not or might not be facts.

Eurobserver wrote:

Speaking of facts, I don´t think that it could be taken for granted that Maura was, in fact, the driver of the Saturn all the way or for even part of the way between Amherst, MA, and Swiftwater, NH.

This is how many here have managed to twist things and make it more complicated than it is. No, you do not have to “take it for granted” that it is Maura who was in the car in Swiftwater when it crashed if you don’t want to but you should. The default thinking would and should be that it was her. The reason is simple. The simplest way to explain how someone who looked like Maura had crashed Maura’s car would be that it is Maura. Very clearly that is the simplest answer so I take it for granted. If you want to present a more convoluted, complicated theory I’m listening, but you really need to explain why it just could not be Maura in the car. Not just to me but everyone. This is what Occum was really trying to say. The onerous is on you to justify why you would believe it isn’t Maura in Maura’s car. No one here gets special dispensation from this. Not me or anyone else. Start using critical thinking. Too many people watching too many “Colombo” re-runs. Makes for great plots in mystery TV shows but really doesn’t help solve real world problems. The same people that would poo-poo a theory that aliens abducted Maura happily believe that she was abducted en-route by person or persons unknown or even before the car left Massachusetts. There is equal evidence for either theory which is to say none. I am not qualifying either theory on an absurdity level, just on the available evidence.

Bill - One of the usual suspects and damn proud of it.

Sophie Bean,

Many thanks for your kind words and support.
You very clearly understood what I wished to put across in my previous post.

WTF,

Regarding your recent post:

Please, let me make myself very clear here:

I am by no means saying that it could not have been Maura in the Saturn by the Weathered Barn in Swiftwater.
Of course, it could well have been Maura that the SBP (Mr A) spoke with.

I´m only saying that there is absolutely no way to say with any certainty whatsoever that the lady driver of the Saturn by the Weathered Barn was in fact Maura.
It might have been Maura, but it could just as well have been some other young lady vaguely resembling Maura.

WTF,
For whatever reason you are trying to distort my very clear reasoning in my previous post.

I am not, repeat not, in any way accusing any locals in Haverhill for any kind of crime, so why this display of unwarranted irritation?

I just cannot understand your annoyed response here and I do not agree with your conclusions.

Please, let me state this again:

The last publicly known observations of Maura are the video tapes from the liquor store and ATM in or near Amherst.
Somebody quite obviously drove Maura´s Saturn from Amherst to Swiftwater. That driver might have been Maura and might just as likely not have been Maura.

In the absence of any publicly known observations of Maura between Amherst, MA, and Swiftwater, NH, we simply do not know what happened to Maura and what she did after having completed her visits to the liquor store and ATM in or near Amherst.

Is this clear enough?

Thanks!

Where did I say that you were accusing any local of anything? What are you talking about? And as far as being irritated with you I am not. And as far as it not being Maura who crashed in Swiftwater I think I clearly stated what would be required to toss that type of speculation around. It is Maura, for me, until someone has a piece of evidence or a simplerer theory that accounts for what we know. It should also be for you but you are free to think what you want.

Please re-read what I said and the point that Jefferson seems to be trying to make. Clearly something has short circuited.

Bill

Good evening to you all,

Clearly there seems to be much emotion expressed from some very caring individuals on this Topix Discussion Group and I can appreciate your input and passion for getting to the truth of this case. If you will allow me an opinion and address some of these issues with as much finesse’ as an old-Irish Terrier can muster;

Mr. Franklin’s posts (3988 and 3989) in responding to Sophie’s posts were well thought out, checking emotions at the door so-to-speak. I don’t believe I’ve read many (if any) posters stating their “theories” as “facts” rather just possible scenarios to build a “viable theory” upon. The alleged facts are garnished by media reports to the public, it’s all you folks have to work with, simply because you are not privy to a lot of “behind the scenes” activities by Law Enforcement, our PI Team and even witnesses who may or may not have been instructed to remain silent. This does not mean that what you all have offered up in these discussions is being ignored or not appreciated by both the family of Maura Murray (all you/ us/we “insiders?”) and our Team.

Euro, your post (3993) is correct in part (if one wishes to begin at Amherst, MA and work ones way to Haverhill, NH it would take longer than where we are today) however, we do have to start at one end or the other. Sometimes the only way to find the beginning is to work backwards and in this case it’s the abandoned Saturn 620 feet east of the intersection of Bradley Hill Road on Route 112 in Haverhill, NH. This is where the “physical evidence” to wit; the vehicle was found. I have posted and clearly stated as “fact”(this can be backed up in any court of law, but not here) the damage to the Saturn did not happen where the vehicle was recovered. Hence, our investigation of foul play begins there,(by “there” I mean within a few miles) and I might add, has not ventured far from there, for the two and a half years that I’ve been involved with this case. This does not mean we (the Team, LE and others) have not explored all the possibilities to include run-away, suicide, accidental wandering/death, hit-and-run etc.

I (this is my “professional opinion”, not necessarily the Team or LE you understand) believe the location of the Saturn was staged. I believe Maura met with foul play prior to the staging, I believe the overhang damage to the front end of the Saturn was deliberate; I believe her disappearance was not voluntary and I further believe this is no longer a “search and rescue” but a recovery. If there was ever a time in my life I hope to be wrong it is at this time.

Some of you will whole-heartedly disagree with this and some will positively agree with this and that’s fine, because it is after all a mystery worthy of discussion and debate. Please try to be respectful, analytical, logical and accepting of all “reasonable scenarios” in support of your theories.

Thank you for allowing me an opportunity to speak as freely as I am capable.

Respectfully

Weeper

Ok, when I posted the BOLO info on Monday, I was having a bass ackward day. And as you guys are aware, I try to keep FACTS just that. So, I need to correct myself.

The BOLO issued immediately after the vehicle was discovered was for a Female about 5‘7. That’s all the descriptors given. And, again, BOLO was issued only to area Fire units.(have you ever heard of a fire truck patroling and looking for individuals?)

The next day, Tuesday, at 12:04 pm, another BOLO was issued. This time, the BOLO was issued to all area law enforcement. This is the descriptor of the female they were told to be on the lookout for:

Black hair past shoulder length, wearing a dark coat, about 5’5”, 120 pounds.

I just typed this from the dispatch report.

To all,

By the way, what I always do prior to posting on this Forum is that I first type my post on a word-document, mostly because it allows me to utilize the spell-check option and to review/proofread my message, then cut and past. I then save all these word documents so that I can go back and research my statements to you all so as not to be mis-quoated in other's posts.

Weeper

Lady Gray,

Thank you for posting the BOLO information there.

First of all, what possible reason could there have been for LE to issue the first BOLO for Maura for the area Fire Units only???
This seems to me completely incomprehensible.
Can anyone here offer any reasonable theories for this? I would certainly be hard-pressed to come up with a feasible explanation.

Secondly, the second BOLO for Maura issued the next day mentions past shoulder-length black hair and a height of 5´5".
If I recall some earlier information here correctly, Maura´s hair even if down could not possibly be described as "past shoulder-length" as it was apparently cut in a "bob" style.
The BOLO description of Maura´s height also seems to be for a person shorter than Maura.

Of course, it would be quite possible to argue that the SBD (Mr A) would have faced some difficulties in making a correct description of the lady driver of the Saturn.

Even so, however....

Eurobserver wrote:

Lady Gray,
Thank you for posting the BOLO information there.
First of all, what possible reason could there have been for LE to issue the first BOLO for Maura for the area Fire Units only???
This seems to me completely incomprehensible.
Can anyone here offer any reasonable theories for this? I would certainly be hard-pressed to come up with a feasible explanation.
Secondly, the second BOLO for Maura issued the next day mentions past shoulder-length black hair and a height of 5´5".
If I recall some earlier information here correctly, Maura´s hair even if down could not possibly be described as "past shoulder-length" as it was apparently cut in a "bob" style.
The BOLO description of Maura´s height also seems to be for a person shorter than Maura.
Of course, it would be quite possible to argue that the SBD (Mr A) would have faced some difficulties in making a correct description of the lady driver of the Saturn.
Even so, however....

And something else I don't understand is that the BOLO issued on Tuesday at 12:04 pm should, at that point, have info on Maura that they would have from her driver's license. They knew it was Maura Murray. So why didn't they look up her driver's license info and put that in the BOLO?

Seems as if the info on Tuesday was obtained from witness' viewpoint?(Weeper smart man you are)

Hello Lady Gray,

Yes, indeed why not?
I was pondering the very same question just a little while ago and I can not seem to find a good answer for it.

Yet another of the many mysteries of this case, where the unanswered questions just keep adding up:

1. Why the rag in the tail-pipe of the Saturn?
2. What about the mysterious behaviour of the possibly MA-reg red truck as seen by witness RO in Swiftwater?
3. What about the likely previous accident/incident involving Maura´s Saturn, presumably somewhere between Woodsville and Swiftwater?
4. Why no known witness reports of any such accident/incident and why no known police/EMS records of any such accident/incident?
5. Who was the woman driver leaving the site of the supposed previous accident/incident "in a private vehicle", as described by several people hearing this mentioned on the police radio?
And where did this accídent/incident take place, considering that it seems to never have occurred, if the lack of any such known official records are to be believed?
5. The description by Mr & Mrs W at the Weathered Barn curve of hearing an acceleration and a subsequent thud just before the Saturn ending up in the snowbank. Why an acceleration?
6. The description of someone (possibly a man) possibly smoking a cigarette by/in the Saturn (as mentioned by witness Mrs W, IIRC).
7. I also seem to recall having read somewhere (possibly on the old MMM forum) that one of the rear windows of Maura´s Saturn was partially found open. Why?
8. The very strange discrepancies regarding the deployment or not of the air bags of the Saturn at the Weathered Barn site.
9. The supposed description (by LE) that some of the alcohol in the Saturn appeared to be missing.
How could anybody know whether any of the alcohol was missing, unless the contents of the car had been observed some time previously?

The strangeness is seemingly unending...

Weeper wrote:

I have posted and clearly stated as “fact”(this can be backed up in any court of law, but not here) the damage to the Saturn did not happen where the vehicle was recovered.

.....

Thank you for allowing me an opportunity to speak as freely as I am capable.
Respectfully
Weeper

In short, I believe what Mr. I. Terrier Weeper is saying to us here, is that we have to trust him that this is a fact, because to prove to us why he knows this would muck up an ongoing investigation.

You can choose not to take him at his word, or say that we're being too difficult or conspiracy minded, or quote Occam's razor until your fingers bleed to their stumps, but as for me, I shall trust what he says.

Incidentally, THIS is the kind of information that might have made a world of difference to Fred et al. if the LE involved had simply communicated it.(ie, "we have reason to believe x-and-such, but we can't tell you why because of the investigation" or even "we're still looking, but you'll have to trust us because x-and-such" instead of silence and stonewalling. If they had even indicated in any way that they were still investigating, that they cared at all, I think Fred would have had much more faith in them.)

sophie bean wrote:

Let me say it again, anything not known to be a fact shouldn't be stated as a fact. I fail to see how that can be viewed as somehow contentious. Eurobserver just said the same thing in the post directly above.
It's absurd to view disagreement as "harsh" unless there are accusations, name-calling or other clearly offensive comments - I made none of the above, nor have I ever done so.
In my post which was criticized so harshly by the usual suspects, I was saying that all possibilities should be considered, and no stone (literally) left unturned. This is a "problem" in what way?
That said, "Ben" - you arrived here, posted a number of things as facts which are not facts, were corrected about them, and immediately reacted in high dudgeon. OK. We have seen this sort of thing before, quite a few times. I am frankly suspicious of it.
Thank you, Eurobserver, for noting the things that have been assumed by many of us to be "fact" - and for reminding us that they are not or might not be facts.

She speaks true. Even if something is "not mathematically likely" it doesn't make it a provable fact or no. I agree that it is HIGHLY LIKELY that this was Maura's route. But we CANNOT know for sure. We have to assume. While this sort of assumption goes a long way, it does not make it a fact.

While we appreciate the mathematical calculation and the logic, the truth of the matter is, facts are NOT always logical. We can use those calculations as a LOGICAL, LIKELY indicator, but we cannot make them a fact, no matter how hard we try.

(For a long time, it was a "fact" that the world was flat.)

4 1/2 years later.....we get to see Maura in the spotlight. ITS ABOUT TIME....
Columbo

Eurobserver wrote:

5. The description by Mr & Mrs W at the Weathered Barn curve of hearing an acceleration and a subsequent thud just before the Saturn ending up in the snowbank. Why an acceleration?

I have always presumed that the acceleration-then-thud scenario was someone trying to get OUT of a skid/ditch/ice patch and then striking something. But, again, that's just an assumption. Meaning that the car was already disabled in some way that wasn't heard (stuck, stalled, had no traction, in a snowbank, you name it) and the acceleration was trying to gain traction to get back on the road, and failing.

Oh god. It suddenly makes me wonder what KIND of thump was heard. I know cars make different noises when they hit other cars, trees, snow, and.....oh god. I REALLY hope that a person wasn't hit, Maura OR anyone else.

Detective Columbo wrote:

4 1/2 years later.....we get to see Maura in the spotlight. ITS ABOUT TIME....
Columbo

Columbo, glad you're around lurking.

Euro, add to the list of unanswered/undefinable situations:
10. The beer bottle found when Maura didn't drink beer
11. Maua's out of character behavior prior to her diappearance (i.e the accidents, the unexplained leave fron college, etc.)

Detective Columbo..do you think this a re-run
of March 2006...?(20/20)..?
Euro...I think #9 was one of my many first questions back in Spring 2005. The words "some of the alcohol was missing"...huh?
Firecat....ditto...Irish Terrier..just "Yes"