Where is MAURA MURRAY

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
She speaks true. Even if something is "not mathematically likely" it doesn't make it a provable fact or no. I agree that it is HIGHLY LIKELY that this was Maura's route. But we CANNOT know for sure. We have to assume. While this sort of assumption goes a long way, it does not make it a fact.
While we appreciate the mathematical calculation and the logic, the truth of the matter is, facts are NOT always logical. We can use those calculations as a LOGICAL, LIKELY indicator, but we cannot make them a fact, no matter how hard we try.
(For a long time, it was a "fact" that the world was flat.)

I agree with much of what you say here.:)

Now my belief on finding a solution - and a bit of a problem in that (very understandably) we can't get feedback in some situations.

The best case scenario,*anyone* would come up with a theory as to what happened - and then someone would check to see if it were true or could not be determined.

For example - pure fiction on my part nothing to do with this case other then a discussion of methodology -

Say that someone's theory of a possible solution depended upon the person being looked for bought a ticket at the theater. There is no evidence of a theater at all, but if it could be established as fact - then in this fictional case - it would prove that the individual, who left the house with only $20 and no ATM card could not be the person who spent 19.99 outside the fictional crime scene.

If the theater is checked - then the possibilities have been narrowed down. The failure point in this would be to check Theater Cameras.

What I'm trying to do is find likely scenarios with identifiable failure points.

Gas tank was almost full. I don't know how full, or what the Saturn's mileage was. But if I knew that, I'd know within how many miles the car drove from the gas station. I could draw a circle around the accident site - because based on the time, the car didn't divert from traveling to where it was found. At least its pretty likely.

Next step is to create a list of all the possible gas stations and then see if there were cameras there, then check them for a Saturn.

Once at the gas station, all sorts of possibilities open up. They might only take credit cards after a certain hour, or only had a few cash purchases, or maybe they have camera footage. Maybe the criminal used his credit card and there were only a few customers that night. You never know.

The hope is to determine if she was there or not - narrows down where the crime could have taken place.

In a backwards kind of way - the gas was bought with cash, or someone else bought it. We know she didn't use her credit cards. Anyway cash is now rarer then credit cards.

Now you have some possibilities.

But ideally someone would get back to us,(in the fiction scenario again) and say no - she wasn't at the theater. Then we would think of other stuff.

But the very reasonable reason they don't get back to us is that its an investigation.

But just because it isn't ideal, doesn't mean we can come up with possibilities that can be looked into.

B. F.

I Encourage people to look at Eurobserver's list or anyones and try to see if they could think of possible reasons, and take a stab at what the explanation could be.

B. F.

Also the police have more actual facts then we do.

With the facts we have, we have got nowhere in 4 years.

That's when you know its time to start thinking outside the box.

There is no point in rehashing the same old stuff. There is no point in believing that we're going to find something with "just the facts" when there are a lot of police & investigators with more facts then we have, hitting a brick wall.

Does anyone really think that we're going to think of anything they haven't by only stating "just the facts?"

The whole point is to think of viable possibilities that can be proven or disproven.

B. F.

Fact based conjecture is more valuable

If looking in the local area and asking the locals hasn't given a solution yet, and extensive ground searches have produced nothing - well that's for one evidence that she didn't end up where you looked. But two its evidence that something happened somewhere else.

BF,

Ever read Ben's biography. I did in college and paid extra attention because I grew up looking at his lightening rods mounted on buildings in Portsmouth.

Just the same, I find it interesting. Your choice in the name.

The entire search grid has not been searched e.g. on privately owned property,underneath newly contructed sites, etc.

Off the top of my heard I believe (2) area residents declined searches, at least during the 2006 volunteer search. These two individuals were the bus driver and the construction worker who came forward with the girl running in the hoodie sighting.

I am sincerely thankful to all of the locals whom did allow their properties to be searched and have offered their support of Maura and her family.

Just reiterating that the entire search grid has not been searched thoroughly. It is common practice for Dr. Godwin to provide search grids and they have proven to be fairly accurate.

But yes, it is wise to take into consideration that Maura may have been transported elsewhere. Even across state lines.

There is/was a scam called "swoop and squat," which forces car driving victims to rear-end the scam artists' cars. You, the victim, are driving along the freeway when a car suddenly pulls in front of you. Immediately, another car pulls in front of both of you, and slams the brakes. The car directly in front of you slams the breaks and
you end up rear ending that car. As soon as that happens, the car in front leaves the scene, never to be seen again. The result: you and your insurance company end up paying bogus medical claims and outrageous repair bills.
Some organized auto fraud rings are so complex they involve hundreds of willing participants, including unscrupulous lawyers, doctors, chiropractors, auto shops, tow truck operators, ambulance drivers, police officers and insurance
company employees,.

What if it happened something like that, for other reasons, ie Like Maura stopped at Dunkins/Citgo.and/or..she was spotted by/for.? Pretty girl alone...? What if the red truck was one of those two vehicles ...and that was why the red truck was seemingly looking for....? Would perhaps explain police looking for red trucks
later that evening, as noted in Dispatch Log.....
Anne heard the words,(7PM) "left in private vehicle..Swiftwater"....( approx 2 miles???) from 302 intersection.
(approx 1 mile further to site..?) I had the exact odometer readings...can't find now.
Perhaps it wasn't worthy of (PD) Grafton Dispatch log, but FD/EMS might have a separate Log...?

I think that between Woodsville..at the lights 302 down to 112 any "accident" would be noticed by travelers,but not within the first mile or so on 112....(Then FW's call....there's a half hour for...what....? who...how..?)
Perhaps someone from the 1st accident did see the alcohol, told CS...(at scene of "staged") that some was missing...?
(someone had to see/tell/report to Dispatch
"left in private vehicle"..for Anne and others to hear it)
Would account for that blank spot on page 18....between snow machines and FW call.(about an hour)
Weeper, I do have a few questions but, most likely
you wouldn't/couldn't answer them for me.

elsewherebriefly wrote:

BF,
Ever read Ben's biography. I did in college and paid extra attention because I grew up looking at his lightening rods mounted on buildings in Portsmouth.
Just the same, I find it interesting. Your choice in the name.
The entire search grid has not been searched e.g. on privately owned property,underneath newly contructed sites, etc.
Off the top of my heard I believe (2) area residents declined searches, at least during the 2006 volunteer search. These two individuals were the bus driver and the construction worker who came forward with the girl running in the hoodie sighting.
I am sincerely thankful to all of the locals whom did allow their properties to be searched and have offered their support of Maura and her family.
Just reiterating that the entire search grid has not been searched thoroughly. It is common practice for Dr. Godwin to provide search grids and they have proven to be fairly accurate.
But yes, it is wise to take into consideration that Maura may have been transported elsewhere. Even across state lines.

Yeah - I just read (or rather listened) to the Autobiography before I went here. Downloaded the text from project Gutenburg, opened it up in MS Word and dwnld, installed Microsoft reader (which is based on a Carnegie Melon [I think][iece of free software)

I wish I could say my real name was Kirok (The Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer) but instead I'm just plain old James (not a limo driver like mt great grandfather John, but instead a CPA)

On the above possibilities I hope they were (are being) followed up on.

Shack wrote:

There is/was a scam called "swoop and squat," which forces car driving victims to rear-end the scam artists' cars. You, the victim, are driving along the freeway when a car suddenly pulls in front of you. Immediately, another car pulls in front of both of you, and slams the brakes. The car directly in front of you slams the breaks and
you end up rear ending that car. As soon as that happens, the car in front leaves the scene, never to be seen again. The result: you and your insurance company end up paying bogus medical claims and outrageous repair bills.
Some organized auto fraud rings are so complex they involve hundreds of willing participants, including unscrupulous lawyers, doctors, chiropractors, auto shops, tow truck operators, ambulance drivers, police officers and insurance
company employees,.
What if it happened something like that, for other reasons, ie Like Maura stopped at Dunkins/Citgo.and/or..she was spotted by/for.? Pretty girl alone...? What if the red truck was one of those two vehicles ...and that was why the red truck was seemingly looking for....? Would perhaps explain police looking for red trucks
later that evening, as noted in Dispatch Log.....
Anne heard the words,(7PM) "left in private vehicle..Swiftwater"....( approx 2 miles???) from 302 intersection.
(approx 1 mile further to site..?) I had the exact odometer readings...can't find now.
Perhaps it wasn't worthy of (PD) Grafton Dispatch log, but FD/EMS might have a separate Log...?
I think that between Woodsville..at the lights 302 down to 112 any "accident" would be noticed by travelers,but not within the first mile or so on 112....(Then FW's call....there's a half hour for...what....? who...how..?)
Perhaps someone from the 1st accident did see the alcohol, told CS...(at scene of "staged") that some was missing...?
(someone had to see/tell/report to Dispatch
"left in private vehicle"..for Anne and others to hear it)
Would account for that blank spot on page 18....between snow machines and FW call.(about an hour)
Weeper, I do have a few questions but, most likely
you wouldn't/couldn't answer them for me.

I've heard of the type of car scam you mention before.

Shack wrote:

There is/was a scam called "swoop and squat," which forces car driving victims to rear-end the scam artists' cars. You, the victim, are driving along the freeway when a car suddenly pulls in front of you. Immediately, another car pulls in front of both of you, and slams the brakes. The car directly in front of you slams the breaks and
you end up rear ending that car. As soon as that happens, the car in front leaves the scene, never to be seen again. The result: you and your insurance company end up paying bogus medical claims and outrageous repair bills.

In order for this scam to work the person being struck must stop and exchange information with the person being struck. They don't just drive away. How would anyone be able to rip off the victims insurance company if they did that? It is almost never done on the freeway. It down at low speeds so little damage occurs making the victim believe that police are not even needed and that they can pay for this out of pocket. Later on come the claims of heavy property damage and medical injuries and you have no police report and no witnesses to back up what you are claiming.

B

My humble try at Euro's questions:

1. Rag, how much was sticking out of the tailpipe, 1 inch, 2 inch, etc. Someone who knows Maura might use a rag, uses the rag to further show it must have been her.
2. Red truck, if not looking for someone on foot, why deliberately eyeball someone on foot?
3. Previous accident? And if so, we have "left in private vehicle" as the only reference
4. No known witness reports? "Left in private vehicle", nothing more to say if the car drove on. But Weeper says "Maura" did not slide off the road.
5.(A) Woman driver, same person who "spins out" on the curve.
Records are kept "mum" in much the same way the accident report was.
5.(B) The acceleration.....if it was backed up parallel to the road and then turned around quick by intentionally accelerating.
6. Description, I hear two people in this but public is to focus on "SBD with the girl"
Mrs WM calls police even though she knows BA is there saying there's a man. I hardly think a BOLO description of " hair past shoulders" could be mistaken for a man, hence two people, more "mums" in my mind.
7. Rear window possibly open? Was it or wasn't it? Also, did I hear the heater was poor in the car.....I don't recall, does anyone know?
8. Airbags, Butch wants to place himself right there when it happened. They may have already been deployed before the weathered Barn.
9. Some alcohol supposedly missing, same witness comparing the "before and after".

The strangeness is seemingly unending... I agree

Sorry. Meant to say that the person being struck must stop to exchange information with the person who hits the person in front. How would the person being struck get any money. The scam is to the insurance company. They have the money. When everything goes bad is when the person in back gets a letter from the "injured persons" lawyer talking about all the property damage and personal injuries that were caused and now the person who struck the car now realizes that they must call their insurance company and it is just his word against the other car who will have more than one witness.

B

On insurance - I found this unbelievable.

I saw a crime show about a week ago, in which some guy started fires in his own home to collect insurance money 4 times, killing two wives and injuring another, at least. I know the insurance companies paid out at least three times.

So I couldn't say that this would be impossible. Oh to see a criminal hang himself with his own greed.

On another subject.

You know who Fred should hire to find Maura?
Kenneth Starr.

Hell, just the threat might have avoided his having to go to the Supreme Court to get documents.

Fred could say - whoever did this, you'll be much better off if you turn yourself in, because I've got Kenneth Starr.

I re-read what you wrote and understand its the car in front of the car you struck. I have seen the scam run were the third car blocks on the left to keep the victim from avoiding the car in front. I got it now.

B

Eurobserver's list - just trying....

"1. Why the rag in the tail-pipe of the Saturn?"

Answers I've seen: a.) It would cause the car to stall b.)The woman Mr. Atwood saw where car was left placed it there to stop smoke from coming out of tailpipe to prevent herself from being noticed.

I've read that this rag was in the car's trunk, part of an emergency road kit. Weather it stayed in trunk or was put in the passenger area long before accident and it doesn't change the fact that someone(<---leaving possible it was not Maura) had to have access to the car.

But the difference in the rag (prior to tailpipe placement) being in front of car instead of in the trunk is that it would not require prior knowledge of its existence or a search of the trunk after abduction for it to be used.

More speculation: If the rag was filled with Chloroform and was used to abduct Maura, perhaps the tailpipe exhaust could mask the smell of the chemical.

***Possibility*** Check the rag for chemicals.

If the rag was still in the trunk (requiring prior knowledge for use), then if it was used to subdue Maura, then whoever subdued her must have known her. Also requires that she be followed, or if abductor was traveling with Maura of her own free will and in car, requires a third person in second car to act as get away.

***Possibility*** Check inside car for fingerprints. If only 1 set found - well that eliminates some of these speculative scenarios.

I'll do just one at a time.

hi all ,according to reports when mr Murray tried to start the saturn at Lavoies it started with his key..i dont know that the rag in the tailpipe had been removed by then but it was reported that mr Murray said that the rag was from Maura's trunk.so can we assume that the saturn trunk was opened at some point or was this some generic rag that every gas station or auto shop would carry.the Marottes reported activity at the trunk the typical shop rag is red .did he look to see if anything was missing from the trunk.if a rag was put in the tailpipe and driven it would be blown out by the pressure of the engine unless it was taped in there or somehow held in there by a floor mat.i am assuming here but the person that helped her at the first event had access to the trunk.as to driving with a plugged exhaust that would be less than 100 feet unless there were holes in the tailpipe to allow exhaust gasses to escape.i dont' know why the Murrays have never answered one single question about Mauras life before the saturn was found at the weathered barn.that is too odd.take care philip

Post 1 of 2

Euro/BF I have looked at Euro list and though it would be difficult to speculate on some of the points, there were a few that I would like to hear opinions about…

1. Why the rag in the tail-pipe of the Saturn?
Ben, found your comments on this interesting. Didn’t Brian Rooney allegedly use a rag with chemicals to overcome some of his victims? I must say that I found this to be a curious conclusion.

BF‘s comment:“If the rag was still in the trunk (requiring prior knowledge for use), then if it was used to subdue Maura, then whoever subdued her must have known her.”

Seems to me if the rag were in the trunk and somebody opened the trunk, it might have been seen. Doesn’t necessarily mean that the person must have known her. When I think about it, I can’t say my ‘significant other’ knows what is in my trunk or vice versa.

7. I also seem to recall having read somewhere (possibly on the old MMM forum) that one of the rear windows of Maura´s Saturn was partially found open. Why?(here is a link to the picture where this is seen) http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraM...

While I don’t know when or where the picture was taken, if you look at the reflection in the car door, there doesn’t appear to be leaves on the trees, nor does there appear to be snow on the ground, so this tells me that it was taken quite a while after the accident.

You can’t tell in this picture: http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/Murray...
but the window may still be open. Does anybody know when these were taken?

9. The supposed description (by LE) that some of the alcohol in the Saturn appeared to be missing.
“How could anybody know whether any of the alcohol was missing, unless the contents of the car had been observed some time previously?”

Ben, you say that you’re a CPA and yet if I’m reading what you say correctly, you appear to dismiss what Weeper is suggesting.

“If looking in the local area and asking the locals hasn't given a solution yet, and extensive ground searches have produced nothing - well that's for one evidence that she didn't end up where you looked. But two its evidence that something happened somewhere else.”

I find that curious as he has so kindly supplied us with information about the group of private investigators and I quote:

Weeper’s post:“Allow me to explain/extrapolate on our (The Maura Murray PI Task Force Team) reasoning for not wanting and/or accepting any documents obtained from the New Hampshire Major Crimes Unit as related to this investigation. To begin with, our group of investigators has over 150 years of “criminal investigation” experience combined/jointly in every aspect of investigations. That is to say, we have experts (Court Certified Experts) in Accident Reconstruction (automobiles, trains, boats, etc.), Defense Investigators, State Police Homicide Investigators (retired, now Private Investigators), Search and Rescue Experts, Statement Analysis and Body Languish Experts and Missing Persons (cold/unsolved cases) Investigators. All these investigators come from Professional Associations from the State level and National level.”

Post 2 of 2

Ben thank you for providing the Google map page and the map of the White Mountains. I took the time to zoom in on the map and convert it to a satellite view. When I look at it that way, it seems improbable to me that even if numerous grid searches had been done (and from the media accounts, it appears that there was only one grid search done in the immediate area) with each searcher having a dog, that a search would necessarily find Maura.

“The White Mountains encompass an area larger then the national forest.” While I agree with this, I believe that Weeper was speaking to jurisdictional issues and the White Mountains National Forest which is Federal land when he made reference to this. Thing is that if you check this map
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountai...
you will see if you zoom in the area where Maura’s car was found (about half way down and to the far right) you will see that in that area, the boundaries of this Federal land (the green area) take some strange twists and turns and come very close to the ‘crash site’.

Every so often I go back to my beginning in where I came to read about Maura’s disappearance. Yesterday, I checked in on Websleuths and saw Ben’s posts. While I found the post informative, I did note one error, a sentence implying that the private investigators were paid by the family:

BF's post:“I can't be sure but even some of the early posters may have been members of her family - and it appeared a private investigator the family hired would read and post.”

Took me a while to find it, but I thought that I had read that they were pro bono. By the way pro bono means services provided at no cost.
(See Weeper’s post at 3870)

Weeper‘s posting:“As I've stated on Maura's Forum in the past, I will assist in answering questions you may have so long as those questions/answers do not hinder this investigation. I am, by profession, a nationaly certified criminal defense investigatior, not being employed, paid, induced or otherwise under the influance of any member of the Murray family. I am one of several private investigators (pro-bono)from MA,NH,ME,VT and CT who are taking on this case for one purpose only..to uncover the TRUTH of what happened to Maura Murray on Feb. 9, 2004. I am not here to entertain you or partake in frivolous conversation.”

Paris there is a copy of the accident report at this link http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/Documents.h...

Fred Murray stated the following in a letter to NH Governor:
“Phone records reveal that Maura called a couple who rent their condominium in Bartlett, New Hampshire, where our family has vacationed for decades, just before she left the University of Massachusetts and headed directly that way last February 9. When I recently discovered that these folks had never even been contacted by Troop F it felt as if I had just been struck across the face with a two-by-four.”
http://www.mauramurraymissing.com/Fredsletter...

I must say, I would be curious to hear some thoughts on the information presented.

hi all when mrAtwood made his second call to 911 was sgt Smith not already on his way or even on 112.just for reference rt 112 in the winter is a very difficult rd. to drive even if you know it.Maura did not.it is very uneven, frost heaves and has limited disatnce visibility.this is in the day time.25 m.p.h in the winter at night would be considered a good rate of speed.if someone did not know that road i imagine they would be somewhat hunched toward the steering wheel just to see the road.take care philip

paris wrote:

My humble try at Euro's questions:

1. Rag, how much was sticking out of the tailpipe, 1 inch, 2 inch, etc. Someone who knows Maura might use a rag, uses the rag to further show it must have been her.

---snip ----

Paris, so glad you're here and have been posting! The things you said brought on this long post of mine here. Sorry!

Fred identified the "rag" that was in the tailpipe as a white towel Maura carried in the trunk of the Saturn. IS THIS A FACT? Was it part of an emergency kit, from the gym, or from Fred's motel in Hadley?

Any of these could be true:

--- Maura put the towel in the tailpipe herself (as Fred once said to do if the exhaust was obviously smoking) to avoid being pulled over by LE.

--- Small towel was relatively clean so couldn't have been in the tailpipe too long with sanded, salted roads, etc.

--- Someone put the towel in the tailpipe at the scene of a "first" accident if the back end of the Saturn was sticking out onto the road? As an alert.

--- I believe after much debate the MMM forum said that with a towel in the tailpipe, the Saturn would've stalled out within a mile or so. Anyone know THE FACTS on this?

--- Maura might've had the towel inside the car for whatever personal or winter-related reasons, like a steamed-up windshield?

--- Since it was Maura's OWN towel, any criminal using it had to have free access to her trunk or the inside of her car. Either she was already disabled, or was allowing a "good samaritan" to help her at the scene of the "first" accident?

--- If someone was going to chloroform Maura (and they'd done this before) they'd've brought their OWN rag with the chloroform, not being sure they'd find a piece of fabric to grab when needed.

--- If Maura had the towel inside the car with her, and had had a "first" accident nearby, then maybe it was the white towel she was holding up over part of her face when Atwood shined the flashlight into the Saturn?(i've said this before, sorry) Because airbags would've deflated already from an earlier accident...

--- Same could be said for a female criminal driving Maura's car...

--- If a male-female team abducted Maura, and the female was driving the Saturn, with the Saturn being unfamiliar to her she might've spun out and stalled the car. And then waited around for the Red Truck to come back and see where he lost her? That makes more sense than her backing in there because the accompanying car would not have kept going if that was what was PLANNED! He'd have been right there near her! Atwood's bus didn't come along for a few minutes so that wouldn't have been the reason THE accompanying vehicle didn't stop too, to let the Saturn's driver jump in.

--- In a very early post Robinsordway said there may have a been two people in the red truck. This could be really important IF IT'S A FACT. She wasn't sure. Maura could've been in the red truck while the female criminal partner followed in the Saturn.

--- This refers back to an earlier poster who said that the girlfriend of a Valley Road rental house was acting really strangely after Maura disappeared. Need FACTS here, but I think that poster said that girl had long dark hair, not as tall as Maura? The poster gave her name, so I'm sure LE has her physical description.

--- Did the silent witness on 112, no names here, after moving from the front window to a side window of his house after the Saturn wound up in the snowbank SEE WHAT HAPPENED at the Bradley Rd intersection? Is that something Weeper was referring to when he said that some witnesses may or may not have been told to stay silent? Is that why LE was stopping red pickups that night?

---When a "person" was at the Saturn, opening and closing doors and the trunk, etc. after Atwood left to call LE, did he/she use the towel (as posted by others) to quickly wipe down prints on the car and then stick the towel in the tailpipe?

whiston wrote:

hi all ,according to reports when mr Murray tried to start the saturn at Lavoies it started with his key..i dont know that the rag in the tailpipe had been removed by then but it was reported that mr Murray said that the rag was from Maura's trunk.so can we assume that the saturn trunk was opened at some point or was this some generic rag that every gas station or auto shop would carry.the Marottes reported activity at the trunk the typical shop rag is red .did he look to see if anything was missing from the trunk.if a rag was put in the tailpipe and driven it would be blown out by the pressure of the engine unless it was taped in there or somehow held in there by a floor mat.i am assuming here but the person that helped her at the first event had access to the trunk.as to driving with a plugged exhaust that would be less than 100 feet unless there were holes in the tailpipe to allow exhaust gasses to escape.i dont' know why the Murrays have never answered one single question about Mauras life before the saturn was found at the weathered barn.that is too odd.take care philip

I;m telling you people the police where somehow involved.......

hi all ,when sgt Smith arrived at the saturn did he check the doors by hand which would mean he walked around the car,or did he just look through the windows with a flashlight. assuming he looked the saturn over he then walked across the road to the Westmans and asked the 'have you seen the girl from the car' thing.how long was he there.did he step inside there home.did mrAtwood leave and then return before sgtSmith got a chance to speak with him.when sgt Smith went to talk with mr Atwood as i understand he was still in the schoolbus and they spoke through the drivers window.if the bus was running then as with the converstion with Maura it was loud to say the least.if the bus was not running after lets say 10 minutes it was cold in there.was mr Atwood just listening to p.d on the bus radio emergency chaannel.as i understand mrAtwood went up to french pond rd.and sgt Smith went off to also look for the saturn driver.was sgt Smith there when e.m.s arrived and did he tell ems to stay away from the saturn. did he request a useless search warrant.take care philip