Where is MAURA MURRAY

Benjamin Franklyne wrote:

Seventh - a person that uses Chemicals could subdue the victim without any noise.

I always wonder what people actually know on this forum and how much bullshit they get from those TV shows. Has anyone here actually been “subdued” by a chemical inhalant? Does anyone here know of a chemical that can be used to put someone out immediately? If you do please let me know. I was “put to sleep” as a child and I fought like hell. These are inhalants and they take time to take effect. Most time the person is struggling to get the cloth off of their mouth so it would take even longer with more struggling. I remember I thought I was being suffocated so someone trying to place a cloth over someone else’s mouth in not a non-violent act and there would be clear indications that something happened. And most of these chemicals ether, chloroform, etc. are not easy to use and the person using them can be easily overcome themselves. Some have a fire and explosion risk also. While someone could be subdued with these chemicals it is unlikely that there would be no indication that a violent struggle didn’t happen.

B.

"Rooney is believed to have used ether-soaked cloths to subdue and incapacitate the woman in order to sexually assault or rape her. "

I'm pretty certain the information came from a victim's testimony where she described her, a rag being shoved into her face and awakening several hours later with her legs feeling like rubber, experience to LE.

I believe I also read that certain types of engine starter fluids constitute the types of chemical agents Brian Rooney may have used.

elsewherebriefly wrote:

"I believe I also read that certain types of engine starter fluids constitute the types of chemical agents Brian Rooney may have used.

Some engine starter fluids contain ether.

My point isn’t that it is impossible. My point is that first hand I know that it is not easy and unless the victim is already strongly compromised a vicious struggle would ensue.

B.

Weeper - you want records from the IRS - the tax transcript. In that, there is the name of the employer and address. Contactthe company because a construction company headquartered in Maine will show a Maine address even though work was done in San Diego. The transcripts will not show to what state the income was taxable.

Red rover, they could fax those transcripts right on over. Maybe start with 2003. You'll need court authority. Pass the info on to the Kesse folks.

sophie bean wrote:

<quoted text>I don't give a rat's ass if she drank. She's GONE, and that's all I care about. AND...there is no "evidence that she was drunk" even as many insist that there's "no evidence of foul play."

And again, here we are full circle for at least the second time on this forum.“She is gone. That’s all I care about.” Very useful. It sounds like a child who has lost a toy, having a tantrum, I actually am curious if you stomp your feet when you say that also. Nothing like what you would expect from a rational adult actually trying to puzzle their way through information about a missing person.
“She is gone. That’s all I care about.” Wow, that’s a big help. Tremendous input. Why not help us with; Why is she gone? Where was she actually last seen? Where did she go? Why did she go? Those are actually useful questions.
Were her plans shaped by conscious thought, clear and analytical? Or were they muddled by alcohol? Those are even better questions. When she bolted from the car was she impaired enough that she would have taken a ride and stayed with a stranger. Could she have been that compromised and scared? Or would she think she could have stayed out in the woods and escape her pursuers?
And the drinking you mean “no evidence” other than one and possibly two accidents within 30 minutes and alcohol in the car and what appeared to be an alcoholic beverage found in an open container nearby and splashes of what could be from said open container on the inside of the car, correct? Other than that you are correct it’s a tremendous leap of faith.
Was the original plan well thought out but later changed by the fear of being caught with alcohol in the car and being intoxicated? Would her actions have been the same if she had been drinking or not? I doubt it. So they are legitimate questions that go directly to how to look and where to search for Maura. But watch out, here comes Sophie with another grenade to toss into the thought process. Anything to derail competent thought. Remember her visit when I thanked her for letting us discuss whatever we wanted to. It seems like so long ago since post #1090 on page 54 but it was only little more than 6 months ago.
I give Shack some credit for at least attempting, a couple of times to come up with some useful information; a couple of times. But you appear to be permanently stuck on stupid and no matter how we hit the needle we can’t get you off. I’m tired enough of it that I’m not pulling punches anymore. Like I said I visit now only to watch and sometimes participate in the foolishness and to try and keep some of the most intellectually retarded participants in check. When I have time, at my leisure.
Last points to help for people who don't understand what evidence is:
There is no blood, no signs of a struggle, no eyewitness who saw anything happen to Maura to indicate foul play. Nobody who heard anything out of the ordinary, and there were people watching and listening.
Fact: There is no evidence of foul play.
There is alcohol in the car, alcohol outside the car, what appears to be alcohol splashed in the car, apparently two accidents within 30 minutes, missing person behavior very like a drinking person at an accident.
Not fact but clearly a CONCLUSION: There is clear evidence that someone likely was drinking. Circumstantial evidence is real evidence. The circumstances in this case clearly indicate that the driver of the car was drinking and likely intoxicated.
I cannot conclude 100% that it was Maura but I believe that it was Maura based upon the evidence.
When you hear hoof beats think Horses, not Zebras and especially not Unicorns.
Hope this helps with the spinning wheels since the activity on this topic seems to be dying down.
See ya,
B.

WTF, I am curious about a couple things. There was a box of wine in the car and since no other al cohol was there, I believe that was all there was. It may have been a leftover from (?)..it makes sense to me in this way after a conversation with her sister at my home in which she said Mauras choice of alcohol was wine. I believe Maura had somewhat rapped up her Amherst obligations, she finished a joint project with other students, returned some scrubs she had borrowed, possibly sent the only viable excuse for missing a week of school and headed to a specific destination. No, I do not know where. I believe personally she disappeared with a previous event, in Woodsville, not at the weathered barn. There is not facts that support this with the exception of the considerable 'chatter' on a scanner about 7 that night. I know some of those who searched that night in that area. They were looking for any sign. Whomever was in the car was not Maura and took a ride. This is just my opinion.

sophie bean wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you talking about the soda bottle found outside of the car? The official police report says that it contained a red liquid with "a strong alcohol smell" - not that it was wine. We have never seen any statement that confirms that the liquid WAS wine - and I personally don't think of wine having a "Strong alcohol smell" - the red Nyquil, yes. Brain Rooney may have been in the area, and used chemicals to facilitate his crimes.
I have NEVER said "Maura wasn't drinking, she didn't drink, she was a good girl!!!" - I find it absurd that people are accusing some of us of "protecting" Maura by insisting that she never touched a drop. That's bullshit. I don't give a rat's ass if she drank. She's GONE, and that's all I care about. AND...there is no "evidence that she was drunk" even as many insist that there's "no evidence of foul play."

Ok, I'll rephrase. Soda bottle with a strong smell of alcohol, that was red, kinda like wine.
If no one gives a rats ass about the drinking, why are people trying to figure out if it's cherry coke, Nyquil??!! the breakdown of a swizzlestick? That's what I don't get. You keep trying to disprove what is probably the obvious. If it doesn't matter why discuss what was in the container.I also never said she was drunk.

"Brain" must be the subject changer because I'm not sure where that fits in. Unless maybe you are speaking of the Nyquil part. But if Brain had one, I would think he would use something a lot easier to subdue someone. Nyquil can take awhile..

Brian Rooney drove a red Jeep Grand Cherokee. I am not sure if he owned that vehicle in 2004 or whether he was working in Caledonia or Essex County during that time frame; his offenses in those counties were in the late 90's. I do know that he grew up in St. Johnsbury.

Cherry coke is not red, it's a dark brown just like regular coke.

Red wine of most any sort definitely has a strong alcoholic odor - try spilling some in your car and coming back to it after taking a few breaths of fresh air.

That's all that I can state as fact, and therefore that's all I can contribute.

Keep on...

WTF wrote:

WTF wrote:

<quoted text>
I always wonder what people actually know on this forum and how much bullshit they get from those TV shows. Has anyone here actually been “subdued” by a chemical inhalant? Does anyone here know of a chemical that can be used to put someone out immediately? If you do please let me know. I was “put to sleep” as a child and I fought like hell. These are inhalants and they take time to take effect. Most time the person is struggling to get the cloth off of their mouth so it would take even longer with more struggling. I remember I thought I was being suffocated so someone trying to place a cloth over someone else’s mouth in not a non-violent act and there would be clear indications that something happened. And most of these chemicals ether, chloroform, etc. are not easy to use and the person using them can be easily overcome themselves. Some have a fire and explosion risk also. While someone could be subdued with these chemicals it is unlikely that there would be no indication that a violent struggle didn’t happen.
B.

"Federal charges were filed against Rooney as of 1998. He is currently being charged with lewd and lascivious conduct with a minor in Essex County, which is 80 miles east of the university. He is also being charged with sexual assault on a minor and on an 18 year old woman. Rooney is believed to have used ether-soaked cloths to subdue and incapacitate the woman in order to sexually assault or rape her. A former girlfriend (with whom he had a child) has said that he threatened to kill her on numerous occasions. According to court documents, Rooney is believed to be the father of three children from three different mothers."
citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Rooney
citation: Burlington Free Press trail coverage

By the way, someone said that Michelle Gardner-Quinn was found "under concrete" - this is not correct, her body was found in Huntington Gorge.

Ben, I think it was you a few pages back.....wanted to know about other objects that could have been used to cause the spider crack in the windshield. All of those would be theoretically possible--EXCEPT that the crack was from the INSIDE.

Hard to swing a crowbar inside a car, yes, but there are definitely other options for a struggle inside the vehicle that could cause that sort of damage. And yes, it may have been the airbag (directly) or it's also been posited that it was Maura's watch (as a result of the airbag.....or otherwise)

But keep thinking on that. And all the other stuff.

I didn't even know they MADE red Nyquil.

NorthernLight wrote:

Brian Rooney drove a red Jeep Grand Cherokee. I am not sure if he owned that vehicle in 2004 or whether he was working in Caledonia or Essex County during that time frame; his offenses in those counties were in the late 90's. I do know that he grew up in St. Johnsbury.
Cherry coke is not red, it's a dark brown just like regular coke.
Red wine of most any sort definitely has a strong alcoholic odor - try spilling some in your car and coming back to it after taking a few breaths of fresh air.
That's all that I can state as fact, and therefore that's all I can contribute.
Keep on...

several pages back I did correct myself on the color of the diet cherry coke which I thought was red and I did say that it was not red.

I'm sorry, citigirl, I missed that post. It is just one of the few things I am certain of so I wanted to mention it.

NorthernLight wrote:

I'm sorry, citigirl, I missed that post. It is just one of the few things I am certain of so I wanted to mention it.

no problem Northernlight thanks. Ben forgot to answer your question. I'am Maura's cousin

citigirl wrote:

<quoted text>no problem Northernlight thanks. Ben forgot to answer your question. I'am Maura's cousin

No prob - there is a lot of stuff going on here - I'd bet a million bucks I forgot something somewhere.

I hope I am wrong about Rooney.

We'd be lucky to find out that she is still alive and is suffering from severe amnesia.

FireCat wrote:

Ben, I think it was you a few pages back.....wanted to know about other objects that could have been used to cause the spider crack in the windshield. All of those would be theoretically possible--EXCEPT that the crack was from the INSIDE.

Whatever driection it is - I was hoping for a collaborative brain storm. Everybody's invited.:)

"WTF" wrote: "I always wonder what people actually know on this forum and how much bullshit they get from those TV shows."

I got my information primarily from this PBS documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Well not actually - and I agree no one would be out quickly as in that video I linked to there.

I do appreciate the realistic perspective you have aded.

"Has anyone here actually been “subdued” by a chemical inhalant?"

"Not I" said the Duck

"Does anyone here know of a chemical that can be used to put someone out immediately? If you do please let me know."

"Then I will"

From: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_kil...

"Ringall was delighted to escape the cold and share a marijuana cigarette with the stranger. He hopped in the car and began to smoke with his friendly new acquaintance. Before they were half way through with the joint, the man grabbed Ringall and quickly shoved a rag over his face doused with chloroform. Ringall lost consciousness and only briefly reawakened a couple of times during the car ride...."

"While someone could be subdued with these chemicals it is unlikely that there would be no indication that a violent struggle didn’t happen."

Some of Gacy's victims have still not been identified. Makes me wonder if anyone knew they were missing.

http://doenetwork.org/cases/956umil.html

Brian rooney's house in Concord VT. needs to be checked out by police. They had info about him, but it is unknown if this was ever done.

Benjamin Franklyne wrote:

"WTF" wrote: "I always wonder what people actually know on this forum and how much bullshit they get from those TV shows."
I got my information primarily from this PBS documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Well not actually - and I agree no one would be out quickly as in that video I linked to there.
I do appreciate the realistic perspective you have aded.
"Has anyone here actually been “subdued” by a chemical inhalant?"
"Not I" said the Duck
"Does anyone here know of a chemical that can be used to put someone out immediately? If you do please let me know."
"Then I will"
From: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_kil...
"Ringall was delighted to escape the cold and share a marijuana cigarette with the stranger. He hopped in the car and began to smoke with his friendly new acquaintance. Before they were half way through with the joint, the man grabbed Ringall and quickly shoved a rag over his face doused with chloroform. Ringall lost consciousness and only briefly reawakened a couple of times during the car ride...."
"While someone could be subdued with these chemicals it is unlikely that there would be no indication that a violent struggle didn’t happen."
Some of Gacy's victims have still not been identified. Makes me wonder if anyone knew they were missing.
http://doenetwork.org/cases/956umil.html

I think that I said "unless the victim is already strongly compromised". Gacy had a tendency to ply victims with marijuana and then showing them his "magic tricks", remember he was a clown, he would use hand cuffs and take his victims off guard after they allowed themselves to be literally tied up. Even with that, one person supposedly was able to overpower him and escape. It sounds like Ringall was also mellowed with marijuana, laced with god knows what. Do any of these victims sound compromised to you?

Bill

Anne wrote:

WTF, I am curious about a couple things. There was a box of wine in the car and since no other al cohol was there, I believe that was all there was. It may have been a leftover from (?)..it makes sense to me in this way after a conversation with her sister at my home in which she said Mauras choice of alcohol was wine. I believe Maura had somewhat rapped up her Amherst obligations, she finished a joint project with other students, returned some scrubs she had borrowed, possibly sent the only viable excuse for missing a week of school and headed to a specific destination. No, I do not know where. I believe personally she disappeared with a previous event, in Woodsville, not at the weathered barn. There is not facts that support this with the exception of the considerable 'chatter' on a scanner about 7 that night. I know some of those who searched that night in that area. They were looking for any sign. Whomever was in the car was not Maura and took a ride. This is just my opinion.

Hi Anne,

I am not sure what your question is. The alcohol might have been left at the dorm or in her backpack. It is important to me and I’d like to know where it is because of a couple of reasons. If the alcohol was left at the school then she was probably out for a good time of relaxation with a little wine on the way to a week or so of well deserved rest. If she also brought the hard liquor then two scenarios play out for me. One, they were in her bag. If they were in her bag then two more sub-scenarios are possible. Both have meaning. Either she took the bag BECAUSE the alcohol was in the bag or she DIDN’T CARE the alcohol was in the bag. If she took it because there was hard liquor in the bag that intent seems to indicate a strong driving need to use it. To what ends, suicide? She may have just loaded the bag with the alcohol as a matter of convenience earlier to carry or hide them and at the accident scene she automatically grabbed the bag out of habit with no consideration that the alcohol was even in the bag. That leads my thought in another direction. You understand the dilemma? One scenario you would want to scour the woods for 20 miles in all directions. Another scenario basically covers the rest of the world. Tough to start searches for either one, but almost impossible to do both. Of course the other scenario is that they were with her loose in the car and she purposely put them in the bag before she ran from the car. That again, would indicate a strong driving need to use the alcohol.

Knowing where to start a search and the mental state of an individual are KEY to knowing how and where to search. There is no tabloid interest in this crap. IT IS A CRUCIAL PART TO FINDING MAURA.

Not yelling at you Anne. Caps just for emphasis. Not preaching to you either, just trying to answer your question.

Bill

WTF wrote:

I think that

Yeah - but I just wanted to call a Wonder Woman video a PBS documentary.

:) Come on did you laugh or what?

But I am sirious that I think your points are good.