Where is MAURA MURRAY

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
I wonder if Maura was attending clinicals there under the UMass umbrella?(meaning, among other things, that the professor might have been a UMass Boston one rather than a UMass Amherst one?) I don't know how unified the UMass system is. I know that as a professor, I've been send far afield to satellite campuses and off-site locations many times, often on a regular basis. Not as far as 100 miles, but isn't it possible that Norwood could be a shared location for some students?

I don' tknow----because of the direct patient contact/care, the professor typically only has clinical privelages in limited places. It owuld be good to hear from some individuals she went to nursing school with to verify, but when I asked the nursing dept at umass boston, they said I would not be send to something that far away for a clinical rotation.

Someone mentioned something about Haura returning scrubs to a friend who she had stayed with during that rotation....it was only a week into the semester......would that rotation already be over ?(usually they are 4 -6 weeks I believe) Did she drive back to Hoyoke area to return the scrubs? Seems prety senseless if she'd be back there in a week for more clinicals

I have a recommendation that should conclusively resolve whether the source of the reddish stain on the carpet is Maura Murray.

Assuming the reddish stained substance on the piece of carpet obtained at the A-Frame is human blood, which it is according to Weeper, the carpet should be swabbed several times in both the stained and unstained areas (to have a control) and the swabs should be sent to a private lab that does mitochondrial DNA testing (mtDNA). The profile should be compared to a profile developed from a biological sample obtained from Maura’s mother and independently submitted to the lab. If the profiles match, the bloodstain on the carpet must have come from Maura, since mtDNA is inherited maternally. That is, Maura's mtDNA profile will necessarily match her mother's profile, as well as the mtDNA profiles of her siblings. If her siblings never were in the A-Frame, we can answer one the predominant questions on our minds.

Assuming the profiles match, we still wouldn't know for certain if Maura is still alive. If they don't match, we would no longer fear that the blood on the carpet originated from her. We would know that it didn't.

mtDNA is more robust than nuclear DNA and there is a substantial likelihood that a lab will be able to develop a profile from the stained area of the carpet, regardless if the stain is from menstrual blood.

looking4amoose, I have always thought that Mauas neatness and responsibility was why she returned the scrubs when she did, after all several had gotten together tofinish a project the very weekend she disappeared, it doesnt sound like she had plans to me. I never noticed where she returned the scrubs to.

Mason interesting points.

hi lookin4amoose and all.the clothing was returned to someone in Norwood.this was on the old forum.i remember being surprised that someone was actually discussing something that may have happened before Maura vanished take care philip

Anne wrote:

looking4amoose, I have always thought that Mauas neatness and responsibility was why she returned the scrubs when she did, after all several had gotten together tofinish a project the very weekend she disappeared, it doesnt sound like she had plans to me. I never noticed where she returned the scrubs to.
Mason interesting points.

any idea what kind of project they had been working? It just seems too early in the semester to have been doing that. Maybe the scrubs were from the previous semester? Maybe she was staying in Norwood the previous semester? It would so-o-o help to know more about the actual clinical sites--not just the cities. Stalking of nursing students is pretty common...so it would be helpful to be able to investigate.

Quija wrote:

we were told on the last forum by a family member, I believe, that one of Maura's clinicals was at Norwood Hospital. She said there had been one snowy night when Maura and her classmate who drove had to stay at Maura's classmate's FRIEND's apartment overnight to avoid traveling the bad roads. That's when Maura borrowed some clothing, not scrubs, IIRC.

If they weren't scrubs but street clothes that she had borrowed from a friend of a friend, it makes it much more likely that she would return them as soon as she could.

add

Mastermind wrote:

Just a Thought,
I already know that I am an intelligent person, and I don't need to come to a forum topic to prove that to myself. That being said, I don't really care how intelligent here anyone thinks I am, since I am posting anonymously. It really doesn't matter what people think of me here. I never wanted to state what "I know" about Maura's disappearence, because I don't know anything. Just like everyone else. We don't know anything at all. We are all speculating, while some of us are just here to bash other people and not engage in constructive dialogue. Anyway, I did want to express what "I think" or what "I feel" because I felt inclined to do so, and I want to challenge those people who want to jump straight into consipiracy theories because they think it is fun and interesting to make this case all about conspiracies and the bad guys, or they have some personal interest in making Maura not possibly capable of any mistakes herself. Perhaps I make some assumptions, yes, but I make much fewer of them than the conspiracy theorists around here. I don't think that her being an alcoholic is an assumption, unless that wasn't her in the video buying a box of Franzia, Bailey's, Vodka, and whatever the other thing was that I don't remember. Also, if you were on a boat with a book that was about a character that jumped off a boat, and you became missing while that boat was at sea, and this book was left among your very few possessions, then, you bet buddy, the first assumption I would make is that you jumped off that boat. I am not saying that I think assumptions are bad things onto themselves, but that in solving a missing persons case, the scenario involving the least amount of assumptions usually solves the case. This case is an anomaly in that regards, I suppose, because the poor girl was never found. When I make these statements and offer up my analysis, it's because I feel that too much emphasis has been placed on finding the bad guys, when I just don't believe there are any bad guys to be found. I think that this investigation, if you want to call it that, will be best solved by attempting to determine Maura's motives, her actions, and her location. Now that four years have gone by, the latter of these three will be extremely difficult if not impossible.

You are doing such a disrespectful disservice to Maura, her family, and those of us who are sincerely trying to assist in finding out the truth. Why do you still insist to post in this forum when all you do is either cry about how people are being mean to you or come up with the most absurdly stupid and laughable theories about what happened to Maura based on absolutely nothing other than you presuming you seriously know her? You are doing absolutely nothing positive for anybody, especially Maura, by sharing your exceptionally and presumptuously dumb thoughts. You're ostensibly a psychologically distraught soul who feels inclined to post on forums like this in the hopes of people agreeing with you so that your lack of confidence could get a much-needed boost. But when you don't have people agreeing with you, and rather have people pointing out your stupidity using clearly-defined logic and well-reasoned analysis, you become very defensive and attempt to make arguments about how we should all respect each other and respect discourse. Normally, we would and we do, but all of us who sincerely care about Maura and the truth behind her do not tolerate a pseudo-intellectual who insists on believing he indubitably knows what she was thinking along with her deepest emotions and deepest feelings at the time of the accident when, in reality, he knows absolutely nothing about her.

An intelligent person, by definition, exhibits reasoning in their thoughts. You've proved time and time again that you aren't capable of reasoning. I've bought numerous bottles of alcohol on countless occasions for dozens of

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for dozens of different reasons, not a single one being that I'm an alcoholic. The fact that your thought process leads you to believe that she MUST be an alcoholic because she had a few bottles of alcohol in her car, once again, exemplifies your stupidity. I stock up on alcohol all the time in my house for when company comes over. If I'm going to a friends house for dinner or for a party, I usually bring at least a couple of bottles of wine - perhaps a lot more depending on the occasion. If I'm going away for a weekend with some friends, I'd get a few bottles for us to enjoy while socializing. If one of my friends asked me to get some because they couldn't do it for whatever reason, I'd be willing to buy it for them and let them pay me. You obviously don't have many friends and do not have a social life at all. There are an infinite amount of reasons why she would have a few bottles of alcohol in her car. But your brain does not allow you to come up with any of these theories and instead thinks "She MUST be an alcoholic". Additionally, I mocked your thought process by saying "If I disappeared on a cruise ship and I happened to have "Robinson Crusoe" by Daniel Defoe in my cabin, somebody with your thought process would then automatically assume that I jumped off the ship, swam to a nearby island, and lived life as a hermit on a deserted island," and instead of realizing the point - that there are dozens of reasons why I could have this book in my cabin, the most obvious being that I am in the process of reading the book or that I enjoy the book and the least likely being that I am thinking about jumping off the ship and living on a deserted island like a hermit - your brain once again sadly could not deduce such obvious reasoning. I find it hysterically amazing and ironic that, despite me mocking your intellect, you still went ahead and agreed with such a stupid theory and thus verified your stupidity publicly. Your blatant lack of logic makes you far from intelligent, but I'm sure you'll continue to believe you are. Stupid people don't know they're stupid though; that's part of being stupid. It's not like they look in the mirror and say "Hey! I'm Stupid!"

You obviously have psychological problems - I'm absolutely certain of this - and the reason that you presume Maura had some sort of psychological and emotional problems immediately preceding her accident is because this is what YOU experience on a daily basis and therefore you think that others also experience this, because its all you know. You don't know what being normal is like. Your brain MUST assume that Maura is psychologically troubled and that is why she disappeared. For your semi-retarded joke of a theory to be true, in which she staged this entire accident while drunk as a result of alcoholism in an attempt to live out the rest of her life in the woods of New Hampshire following the path of the characters in "Not Without Peril", Maura would have had to have been one of the most deeply disturbed college students in the U.S., and there is absolutely no evidence indicating that she was anything other than a perfectly normal college student. I'm friends with hundreds of girls in college right now, and I'd bet my life that nearly all of them have (a) bought several bottles of alcohol,(b) got a phone call that has upset them, and (c) got drunk at a dorm party. What does that mean? It means Maura was a perfectly normal college student. 95% of students experience that. I know I experienced all three numerous times in college, and so did every single one of my many friends in college. Attempting to deduce something sinister from something so standard among normal college students is pitiable.

Please let those of us who sincerely care for the truth attempt to find out the truth without disrupting us and intentionally trying to throw everything we are talking about off course. I know I would appreciate this. Thank you.

Mason wrote:

I have a recommendation that should conclusively resolve whether the source of the reddish stain on the carpet is Maura Murray.
Assuming the reddish stained substance on the piece of carpet obtained at the A-Frame is human blood, which it is according to Weeper, the carpet should be swabbed several times in both the stained and unstained areas (to have a control) and the swabs should be sent to a private lab that does mitochondrial DNA testing (mtDNA). The profile should be compared to a profile developed from a biological sample obtained from Maura’s mother and independently submitted to the lab. If the profiles match, the bloodstain on the carpet must have come from Maura, since mtDNA is inherited maternally. That is, Maura's mtDNA profile will necessarily match her mother's profile, as well as the mtDNA profiles of her siblings. If her siblings never were in the A-Frame, we can answer one the predominant questions on our minds.
Assuming the profiles match, we still wouldn't know for certain if Maura is still alive. If they don't match, we would no longer fear that the blood on the carpet originated from her. We would know that it didn't.
mtDNA is more robust than nuclear DNA and there is a substantial likelihood that a lab will be able to develop a profile from the stained area of the carpet, regardless if the stain is from menstrual blood.

I agree with you, and I'm sure her father and the PI's and everyone else deeply involved in the investigation has probably advocated this testing on the carpet sample. My question is: what happened to this carpet sample?

The only place I've heard about this carpet sample was on the Wikipedia site for Maura. Where is this carpet sample? Was it ever in the possession of the NH State Police? If so, do they still have it? Did they ever do any testing on it? There are a lot of questions about this carpet sample, and I'd love to hear some of the answers to them. It could be one of the most crucially important pieces of the puzzle.

If anyone has any veritable information regarding this carpet sample, please share.

Mastermind wrote:

"She was probably drunk. She probably partied herself silly over a number of months, became addicted to alcohol, and felt trapped."
Yeah, this was probably a bit much on my part. Although I do feel that alcohol probably had some contributing factor as to her motives, I probably should have refrained from the "partied herself silly" comment. And I say this because she probably wasn't drinking to party, but as a way of covering up deep, emotional pain.

How do you have the audacity to presume you know what Maura was going through? I just can't get over how arrogantly presumptuous and pathetically stupid you are. You have absolutely NO evidence that she was enduring or experiencing ANY level of "emotional pain". And what "motives" are you referring to? How can someone so blatantly stupid sincerely presume to know someone they've never met and someone they know nothing about based on the presumption that she may have been partying in college? There are well over 3 million college students in this country. Statistics indicate that well over 1.5 million of them party regularly, get drunk at parties, binge drink, etc. It's blatantly obvious that you have absolutely NO social life and never had one and no experience in partying with friends, and therefore it's impossible for your brain to comprehend that normal college students drink alcohol. You are excessively out-of-touch with society, and this is exceeded only by your obliviousness to it. Just over this Thanksgiving weekend, I got drunk on Wednesday night (TG eve) with dozens of my friends at one of our friends clubs in NYC. On Friday night, I drank again at another club that my friends and I frequent. That's twice in three nights. This also happens to be the only two times I've drank heavily in the past few months. Am I an alcoholic? According to your utterly incompetent thought process, Yes, I am. Am I drinking to cover up some deep emotional pain? According to your limited mental capacity, Yes, I am. I couldn't just be having drinks while socializing with friends, right? No, of course not. Who does that?!? They must be emotionally disturbed to have to do something crazy like having a few drinks at a party.

How embarrassing. How dare you presume that Maura had emotional pain because she went to a dorm party and drank alcohol. That's disrespectful to her and her family. Do us a favor, stop embarrassing yourself and leave. Thanks.

mcsmom
Hello buddy, so happy to hear you, missed you allot. Thanks for the information on the hard drive. I am stunned that this fact escaped me, wow how in the H&!! did this fact never register? You can well imagine my mind turning over this information, this seems rather fantastic that this would have been lost, now I am wondering if there was something evidentiary related to the university and that it is not lost but concealed. This reminds me of the FBI or whomever trashed Chandra Levy's hard-drive, which I found suspect! My imagination works overtime and I find that very curious that Maura's hard drive was lost...it seems too fantastic to believe. O.K. I can digest that perhaps it was misplaced, but after nearly five years one would think it would have turned up since.....because it has to be somewhere. Or are we to believe that someone threw it in the trash....?! Or was there something evidentiary found that somehow implicated someone at the University of having something to do with Maura's disappearance. As you are aware I have always doubted Maura made the trip north unless she had something very compelling that took her on a trip leaving in the dark for parts not familiar to her, in a poorly functioning car, inexperienced driver now heading for mountains, and missing clinical which would keep her at the University at the end of the semister to make up the time...and she had never been on a trip alone before....in the final analysis I find this all suspect unless of course something very important, vital was happening in her life....which has yet to be discovered...
just my opinion...
However given that we did not know what was so compelling, I did a search of anything that could be happening in the news that might have affected her, such as someone she knew might have died in the line of military duty or something to the effect..
two points in the news on the Monday seemed relevant....
1st the news article re: P. Vaisi that he had been car surfing or struck by a car, was in grave condition and had been transfered to a Boston Neurological unit...given the time of the phone call to Maura and her breaking down seemed that there may have been a link to his accident...however this did not seem to pan out that they were known to one another, he being in Economics and Maura being in Nursing and that none of her friends came forward to offer information that they might have been friends....
continued

Part 11

2nd.
Rumsfeld ordered a review of charges of sexual assaults coming from women in the military who were serving in Iraq, Afganistan which occured between 2002-2004 which numbered 90, some of these
assualts occured prior to being deployed to oversees services, some women were graduates of West Point.
Given Maura's sudden departure from West Point in 2002, and the timing of the announcement of Rumsfeld's investigation and the fact I don't believe in coincidences I thought that Maura may have known some of the victims, might have known some of the men involved in the assaults, and the outside possibility that someone might have been harrassing Maura because of something that she may have known...also the outside possibility that one of the perpetrators was out of the military and attending the University of Mass and upsetting Maura....sorry I have not worded this well but it is late and I'm tired from reading...
...sexual assault is something that one keeps private, so private many people do not come forward...certainly any connection to the perpetrators or victims to Maura might be worthy of investigating...
for myself, there are only two things that would have taken me on such an excursion as Maura took, and have told no one, first being pregnant as previously discussed and the second is sexual assault, and the assault might have had nothing to do with me, but to a friend, or if a friend had asked me to testify against a person I had knowledge about that was a perpetrator...
Maura was obviously upset and troubled about something profound, it might have been related to Nursing School, but it seems more profound than Nursing School, Maura did not seem to have any personal problems that we are aware of, and given the timing of the announcement which was Thursday, the day she was crying and had to be escorted to her room, might be relevant....
http://www.law.buffalo.edu/baldycenter/pdfs/M...
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp...

....Maura had to have known some of the women who were assaulted, it is possible she may have known one or more of the perpetrators...

...certainly if my above speculations are correct
this would entirely explain Maura's behavior and sudden departure from school..and the need for a few stiff drinks when she arrived at her destination....

if Maura was assaulted or victim of date-rape or whatever, she may have told no one, this is what we women do, keep silent, and suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, and we might never even know we have PTSD, until some event flashes us back to the gates of hell

please excuse my above two posts they are out of sequence, the bottom is part 1 and the top which is marked is part 11

To those of you who are critical of Maura's family for vehemently dismissing any theories that she wanted to disappear, run away, or was having issues, you obviously don't have the same family relations that the Murray family has. As someone who grew up in a tightly-knit, close family, I can see exactly why the family is so quick to throw away those theories from complete strangers who know nothing about Maura.

To give an example. My younger sister and I are very close. We grew up with each other. We know each other inside and out. She knows exactly how I think; I know exactly how she thinks. We know each others thought process. I can tell exactly what type of mood she is in. She can tell exactly what type of mood I am in. When you live together for the first 18 or so years of your lives, you tend to get to know the other person very well. I'm absolutely certain that my sister is not out leading some sort of secret life just as certain as I know that I'm not out leading a double life. The ONLY people who would respond to that by saying, "Hey, you never know.. you never really know what someone is thinking, what somebody is up to.. you don't know what she's doing, and what she is telling you, etc etc.. " are those who did NOT grow up in a family like mine, or (I assume) a family like the Murrays. When you grow up in a close, loving family, and you are perceptive and a good judge of character, you get to know your siblings very, very well. The same goes for parents and children, except the bond is even stronger; parents know their children better than anybody. They know if their child is distraught. A responsible, loving parent knows every single little detail about their child and their child's emotions and feelings. A quick example; a few years back, when I broke up with the girl I had been seeing for a while, my mother immediately knew something was up and probably knew it had something to do with her. I see EXACTLY where the Murray family is coming from in dismissing any ludicrous theories from outside strangers who know nothing about Maura and who, more than likely, did NOT grow up in a family that has such a strong bond. For a stranger to tell Maura's parents, "Hey, maybe she was leading a secret life.." - from the stranger's perspective, it seems reasonable, because they not only know absolutely NOTHING about Maura but are also ignorant to the fact that her parents know her infinitely better than some stranger. Therefore the stranger thinks, "hey, its possible" because the stranger does not know Marua, and is not cognizant of the simple fact that Maura's parents and siblings know her better than ANYBODY in the world. If they insist everything was fine at the time, I'm going to believe them without hesitation. Because if everything WASN'T fine at the time, they would definitely, 100% come out and talk about it and reveal whatever "secret" that might be there in an attempt to get some answers into her disappearance. Obviously they would. They would choose to find out the truth about their daughter over choosing to maintain her damn dignity. To those of you who think that the family is simply choosing to maintain her dignity and her name and ignoring whatever answers you think they're ignoring about her personal life, you're incredibly ignorant. They know their daughter, they know their sister, they know their niece INFINITELY more than any of you strangers ever will. They know that there is nothing to be looked at in regard to some of the absurd theories that random strangers are putting out there.

The family thinks that Maura met with foul play subsequent to the accident, and I couldn't agree more. Keep in mind that she took her keys and her cell phone with her wherever she went after the accident. That's a humongous clue that many are overlooking. To me, that points to getting in a car with someone or knocking on someone's door asking for help, with the intention of eventually coming back to her car.

Mitochondrial DNA is more robust, or less likely to degrade over time, than nuclear DNA. Mitochondria are organelles that exist inside each cell, but outside the nucleus.

The nucleus contains one complete copy of a person's DNA blueprint in the 22 pairs of chromosomes. In the vast majority of criminal cases, nuclear DNA is extracted from a biological sample and particular known short sequences, or segments of DNA are amplified using the polymerase chain reaction, which is a method of replicating each sequence of interest many times producing hundreds of thousands of copies. Each amplification cycle doubles the number of copies of the segment of interest. If the analyst starts the amplification process with the nuclear DNA extracted from four cells, the first cycle will produce eight copies of the original segment of interest. The second cycle will produce 16; the third will produce 32; then 64, 128, 356, 712, 1424, 2848, etc., through 32 cycles. The amplification product, as it’s called, is typed producing a profile that is unique to each person.

When a person dies, his or her DNA immediately begins to degrade, which means that the DNA becomes brittle and increasingly breaks apart into smaller and smaller pieces. When the break occurs within a segment that is typed for identification purposes, that segment no longer can be typed. Dried biological fluids or stains retard DNA degradation whereas moisture, bacteria, and exposure to the elements accelerate it. Unless the apparent blood stain on the piece of carpeting retained by the investigators after they removed it from the A-Frame was dry and moisture free since blood was deposited on the carpet and dried leaving an odorless blood stain, the DNA in the stain may be too degraded to yield a nuclear DNA profile. The reaction of the cadaver dogs to the stained carpeting may indicate that the nuclear DNA is too degraded.

Because there are thousands of mitochondria in each cell compared to only one nucleus, it’s possible to develop a profile for the mitochondrial DNA long after all of the nuclear DNA is too degraded to produce a profile. This is why mtDNA is the preferred method used to develop a profile from bones in skeletal remains such as mummies, bones discovered in mass burial sites or scattered across battlefields and very small samples of biological material. Since hair follicles do not contain any living nuclear DNA, mtDNA is the only way to develop a DNA profile from hair – unless the root is attached to the follicle of a freshly plucked hair.

We have reason to believe that a female suspect may have driven Maura Murray’s Saturn the night she disappeared. Since people constantly shed their hair, there is a reasonable probability that the female suspect shed a few hairs in the car. If collected by a trace evidence specialist, all hairs should be subjected to mtDNA testing and their profiles should be compared to Maura Murray’s mother’s mtDNA profile. Any hair with a matching profile could have come from Maura, one of her siblings, Maura’s Mother, her mother’s siblings, or Maura’s maternal grandmother. Any other hair may have come from the female suspect and ultimately might be the only physical evidence linking her to the car.

Therefore, I hope every square inch of Maura Murray’s Saturn was painstakingly examined for trace evidence by people trained to recognize, collect, and preserve it. Not all trace evidence is visible to the naked eye. Use of special lighting and chemical reagents must be used to detect trace evidence that otherwise would be missed by even the most careful observer. Considerable care must be exercised to avoid contaminating a possible crime scene by introducing foreign trace or DNA evidence.

From what I understand about the case, police did not impound her vehicle, secure it in a police impound, or conduct a routine inventory search listing every item in it.

That’s an excellent example of inexcusable and reprehensible incompetence.

I've posted out of order and twice, sorry can't get use to this programme, I'll get it eventually.
sorry for my stupidity...

Just a Thought wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree with you, and I'm sure her father and the PI's and everyone else deeply involved in the investigation has probably advocated this testing on the carpet sample. My question is: what happened to this carpet sample?
The only place I've heard about this carpet sample was on the Wikipedia site for Maura. Where is this carpet sample? Was it ever in the possession of the NH State Police? If so, do they still have it? Did they ever do any testing on it? There are a lot of questions about this carpet sample, and I'd love to hear some of the answers to them. It could be one of the most crucially important pieces of the puzzle.
If anyone has any veritable information regarding this carpet sample, please share.

Weeper's post #4078 at approximately pages 201-203, advises that the investigators collected a piece of the blood stained carpet when they searched the A-Frame, cut it in half, and submitted one half to the cops. The investigators retained the other half, but I don't know if they or the police have submitted the apparent blood stain to a laboratory for analysis.

L4Moose

we don't really have PA in Nova Scotia, most are employed in the Military or on oil rigs, they are not main stream by any means...we have no course here..

I am sure that Helena told me that Maura's clinical was in Holyoke (m.s.) and that it was
in Ped's. I would have remembered if it was OBS. because that is the easiest clinical there is, in my opinion

someone asked me about the scrubs, I wasn't so sure that they got returned, just that the last call Maura received was from her classmate who had loaned her the scrubs..

I was rather taken aback that a nursing student would have to travel so far, however at my last job, the nursing students came from 80 miles away, had to pay their own room and board and the whole nine yards..and this was just a medical unit rotation, nothing special like psychiatry or Ped's rotation...

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
Weeper's post #4078 at approximately pages 201-203, advises that the investigators collected a piece of the blood stained carpet when they searched the A-Frame, cut it in half, and submitted one half to the cops. The investigators retained the other half, but I don't know if they or the police have submitted the apparent blood stain to a laboratory for analysis.

mason I believe the airbags were taken into evidence, whether or not any DNA or mtDNA was conducted is not known, however I agree that the car was not sealed as evidence right away or later is inexcuseable and sloppy police work. If DNA testing was done on the airbags, there would be little question is Maura was driving her car at the time of impact, or if there was a passenger in the front seat....

too swabs could have been taken from the windsheild to see if the glass had been broken by an instrument or if someone struck their head etc..