Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Comments: 269
Oakland, CA
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Mason wrote: TO Benjamin Franklyne & Weeper:
<quoted text>
Ben,
Weeper's message # 4221 at page 210 refers to the Westmans continuing to watch what's going on at the Saturn until Atwood arrives, but the above quote attributed to PI John Smith has them continuing to watch after Atwood leaves. So, my question is did they observe the person they disagree about (man sitting in the passenger seat smoking vs. woman with a cell phone) before or after Atwood left. I'm thinking this happened before Atwood arrived because I don't believe there was enough time for this to have happened after Atwood left and Sgt Smith arrived.
Agree or disagree? A part of this question could be critical in determining who was there, by when the movement started or stopped. Thinking about how the different potential people might have reacted when Atwood arrived depending upon if Atwood was aware of what was going on. Very complicated to sort out in that regard. If it were Maura and her intent was just to get away for a few days - then she wouldn't stop gathering things. Maura wanting to disappear - she might stop, maybe hide? Criminal dumping car - stop & hide... My assumption is that Mr. Atwood would arrive when the Saturn driver should not have expected it, if Mr. Atwood was not involved. If the driver(s) wanted to gather some things and leave - I suspect the person or persons would be caught in the act by Atwood. No point in gathering things to keep them in the car. As to your actual question - as you can see - I'm not focused very well right now - but I'll think this over more tomorrow when I'm more awake. But if weeper actually interviewed people and attempted to nail down the time line - he'd be better to answer - all I can do is exercise some logic and maybe have an answer.
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Mastermind
Boulder, CO
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Judged:
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Mason wrote: What's the reaction to my though that the dispatch times for certain events were running 20 to 25 minutes late. Using a 20 minute delay,
7:07 pm -- Faith Westman calls 911 and reports the accident that she heard a little after 7 pm.
7:09 pm -- Sgt Smith is dispatched to investigate the accident Faith Westman reported. He passes the Cottage Hospital employee on Goose Lane headed toward Swiftwater and Rte. 112 around 7:10 pm. Anne hears over the radio about the single car accident with the car sliding off the road into a ditch on Rte 112.
7:23 pm -- The SBD's wife gets through to 911 and reports the same accident that Faith Westman reported. A few minutes later Anne hears that the driver left the scene in a privately owned vehicle.
7:26 pm -- Sgt Smith arrives at the scene of the accident after a brief detour when he turned the wrong way on Rte 112 and had to turn around and head E/B.
If this sequence of events and times is accurate, then Mrs. Atwood must have been the caller who reported the driver left the scene in a POV. If so, her source could only have been Butch Atwood, the SBD, which is consistent with the suspicion many people have expressed that he must have seen the driver leave the scene.
I don't think there's much doubt that Mr. Atwood has given conflicting versions of what he saw and did at the scene of the accident, so his credibility is tarnished, if not in tatters, to put it mildly. This sounds about right, and I say this because it seems to me when I first started reading about this case that I read Sgt. Smith arrived at the scene at 7:26 (I don't remember the source), but if this piece of information was out there at all, it still may be found. Also, if SBD is lying about her getting into POV (or at least not providing full disclosure) then what is keeping him from lying about the identity of the person. The more and more I read about this case and try to make some sense of it, the more likely it seems to me that she never left Amherst.
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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whiston wrote: hi all.We are taking as a fact that Maura was gone when sgt Smith arrived at the saturn.Also the time spent in Amherst before she left is still a mystery.Someone asked did she drop off the liquor to someone locally before she vanished.Why did Rick Forcier say he saw nothing going on when he got home.take care philip perhaps this question whiston has already been answered, are we sure Maura was gone when Smith arrived, Marrott I believe stated that she was there 1-2 minutes before the police arrived.... I believe it is impossible for Forcier not to have seen what was going on, he states he checked his log, which the police said they verified, and he logged out at 7 p.m. The time that map quest and other interactive maps state it would take to drive there is approximately 30 minutes. That takes him to the accident scene on or about the time Maura disappeared, so perhaps there were not the emergency vehicles yet at the scene. If we go by Marrott's statement and Faith Westman's timeline Maura went missing at 1944-1945. However, Atwood states that when he got through to police he went outside, 1943 (although he states that police were already there) and assumedly he saw emergency flashing lights... Therefore, either someone arrived sooner than Smith, or Atwood was mistaken and simply saw a car with flashing lights, but my point being that Atwood was outside looking at the time Maura disappeared, also since he did not come to the phone at that time, we do not know where he was exactly as we only have his word that he went to the school bus to do paper work.... Neither the school bus driver or the construction worker have alibis as to the time Maura went missing, using the timeline that we know and their statements... Forcier states he saw the Youth after 8p.m., then if Forcier drove the 4-5 miles he should have been home by the latest 8:15, and he could not have missed what was going on down the street, impossible...fire, ambulance, police, tow truck, Atwood at scene...no way he saw nothing, however, if he arrived home at the suspected time of shortly after 7:30. If he did not get home until 8:15, what was he doing in the extra 45 minutes, no way it took until 8:15 to get home, where did the construction worker go..?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Mason wrote: What's the reaction to my though that the dispatch times for certain events were running 20 to 25 minutes late. Using a 20 minute delay,
7:07 pm -- Faith Westman calls 911 and reports the accident that she heard a little after 7 pm.
7:09 pm -- Sgt Smith is dispatched to investigate the accident Faith Westman reported. He passes the Cottage Hospital employee on Goose Lane headed toward Swiftwater and Rte. 112 around 7:10 pm. Anne hears over the radio about the single car accident with the car sliding off the road into a ditch on Rte 112.
7:23 pm -- The SBD's wife gets through to 911 and reports the same accident that Faith Westman reported. A few minutes later Anne hears that the driver left the scene in a privately owned vehicle.
7:26 pm -- Sgt Smith arrives at the scene of the accident after a brief detour when he turned the wrong way on Rte 112 and had to turn around and head E/B.
If this sequence of events and times is accurate, then Mrs. Atwood must have been the caller who reported the driver left the scene in a POV. If so, her source could only have been Butch Atwood, the SBD, which is consistent with the suspicion many people have expressed that he must have seen the driver leave the scene.
I don't think there's much doubt that Mr. Atwood has given conflicting versions of what he saw and did at the scene of the accident, so his credibility is tarnished, if not in tatters, to put it mildly. Mason: Please correct your information: Atwood made the call at 1943, HE called Hanover 911 because circuits were busy, Haverhill called to verify information, 1943 per Sheriff's log Atwood did not come to phone, he states, when he finally got through, and went outside to his bus to do paper work, the police had already arrived,(presumably he could see flashing lights) When Haverhill called back, they spoke to Barbara Atwood.... not at 1926, at 1943 Faith Westman reported the accident at 1926, and logged in at 1927. It is important the timing of 1943 and Atwoods' statement, that the police had already arrived, Maura would still have been at scene, as Marrott states the girl was there 1-2 minutes before police arrived... Who was there, was it Smith? We do not know when Monahan arrived, Assistant District attorney states he would look into this, but we have seen no mention of when Monahan arrived....Stated in Maribeth Conway's article, Hanson Express..... Atwood would or should have been on his bus, and would have seen anyone stopping at the accident scene or Bradley hill road if Maura was picked up by a passing motorist.... I state Maura, but we do not know if it was indeed Maura at the WB accident scene...but the operator of the vehicle if not seen by Atwood passing by, then assumedly the person went in the other direction, down Old Saint Peter's road as Pointer pointed out, or down Swiftwater Circle, it would not have taken anyone running longer than a few minutes to reach Swiftwater circle... It is possible that the person headed by foot to Bradley Hill Road or East 112
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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I see you have taken away 20 minutes, however, you information regarding Atwood's wife making the call are not correct. Sorry I misread your post about adding 20 minutes...
Someone on a forum long ago, do not remember which, but I did not write on the forum only read
...a local resident stated that her grade 6 son, was dropped off at the Woodsville School at 6:30...I requested the person to answer on the 1st MM forum, but no response...
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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citigirl wrote: <quoted text>In May of 04 the SP served a subpoena for the ATM video surveilance tape for Feb.9,04 Thank you citigirl, it did seem unimaginable that the SP had not viewed this photo, why Fred has not been able to see this is suspect that either it was not her, or she was not alone....
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Mason wrote: We need to take another look at Robinson Ordway's statement about the time she encountered the red pickup truck and when it left the parking lot at the Swiftwater Stage Stop convenience store and E/B on Rte 112. Here it is from Lady Gray's message #1200 at page 59,
"I wish I could give an exact description of the truck but I can not. I was walking that night about 7 p.m to the local store. As I was walking up the hill, a truck passed me and slowed down. When it got to the middle of the hill it stopped in the road. I immediately looked at the plate and noticed it was from Massachusetts. There is only 1 street light there and I could not tell how many people were in the vehicle. As I got closer to the truck it took off up the hill. When I rounded the corner to the store, I could see the truck in the driveway of the store. As I walked into the parking lot, which is well lit, the truck took off toward the crash site,(of course at that time I did not know there was a crash).
As for the red truck, it slowed, then stopped and waited for me to get closer, then took off up the hill. He did not leave the store parking lot in any sort of hurry.
When I entered the store I asked if she saw the people in that truck and she said no, no one had come in. I told her about them stopping in the hill. Then we just forgot about it. I stood in the store a while and was there when the police and ambulance went by. I never saw that truck again. The only way I can describe it is that it looked like someone who delivered wood. That was my first thought about it........red, MA plates and delivered wood. Either having a wood body or even just slats in the body. It was not a king cab or extra cab. Just a regular truck. That is all I can tell you.
I was in the Swiftwater store for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes. It was about 20-30 minutes after I was there that the police went by. I am not at all Maura's size and in fact I was bundled up that night. I believe I caught the truck off guard as I was walking well off the road and as they passed I walked back on, which is why I believe they stopped completely. They could not see me without any street lights and maybe went to the store and waited for me to get up there to get a better look??? I don't know. That is just how it seemed to me.
The truck didn't scare me. My thought is that they/he/she thought I was someone else. That is what I was thinking that night. When I saw them sitting at the store, I again thought, they really think I am someone else. And as I got closer and I could see the driver moving around - I was thinking, there, I am not the person you are looking for, and he drove off. I wish to God I could remember what I was wearing that night, but I can't.
Someone asked about the truck and whether it was 4 wheel drive. I believe it was. I have been looking at trucks and have determined that it was definitely a four wheel drive or at least it was a 3/4 ton pick up, because it sat up high. The other thing I remember is that the window in the back was hard to see in....it wasn't very large.....which tells me it was an older truck maybe???" Perhaps the weirdo in the red truck was thinking or trying to abduct RO, and perhaps he thought she was younger, and when he saw her more clearly decided to go after someone else. RO also states she is no were near Maura's size, perhaps the perp realized that he may be no match for RO, difficult to overpower...older and not so naive... just a thought....I never considered the person was going to pick Maura up at the Weatherbarn, or was a look out for the accident scene at the Weatherbarn... but rather someone predatorial, as the sighting gave RO a very bad feeling, I always pay attention to very bad feelings, in myself and others...
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Mason wrote: <quoted text>
They were notified and apparently before they talked to her they spent some time stopping red pickup trucks. They appear to have decided that the one she saw had temporary NH plates that look similar to MA plates. No arrests.
The red pickup truck is one of the biggest and most intriguing mysteries in this case. Mason I do not believe that RO was the author initially of the red truck, I do not believe she told them this night... When she did inform police they discounted her statement, because it was a considerable length of time when the article appeared in the paper, and I believe that RO felt that police did not take her seriously, so if law enforcement was stopping red trucks, the author of the suspectablity of a red truck being involved in some type of illegal doing did not come from RO, not that night. I stated a few days ago, that police were called to PIKE HWY 25, at the store, regarding an incident in there. There is not mention in the Sherriff's log of police being dispatched there at 5:30 a.m. A red truck was involved. I found this on line, however, cannot remember if the log was from Haverhill. On the old MM site, there was information posted, as well as a picture of the store... I thought at the time it might be associated with the suicide call at Lime Kiln road, the store is not far from the OLIVERI SCHOOL...
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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Guess no one is awake...will keep on Anne thanks so much for reposting your information, personally I have always held your account as truthful and it makes sense. Initially reports, MANY, stated the accident was at 7 p.m. and Smith in one interview or statement to the press, stated he was called to an accident between 7-7:30, not very precise but he said this. Also, the Swiftwater area is notoriously confusing as to the names of the roads....I have discussed this with you previously but for the benefit of others will elaborate. the 112, could be referred to as the Swiftwater road, as it leads to Swiftwater...likely the locals call it the Swiftwater road. Too Goose Lane becomes Swiftwater Road, and thus many of the locals likely call this the Swiftwater Road even when it becomes Goose Lane. More confusion, Swiftwater Circle is not far from the Weatherbarn... Therefore, a report of Swiftwater Road leads to confusion. If Maura was in this area, my guess is that she went to the hospital to either meet someone after their shift, or to check on bulletin boards for places to stay. Every hospital I have ever worked in has a bulletin board for employees, with articles to buy, houses, boats, cars for sale, house and apartments for rent... Also, if I wanted a trust worthy place to stay, I would go to a hospital and enquire what was available in the community as they are always opened. Too it would be a safe place to use the washroom facilities...Maura likely had to use the bathroom, and a hospital bathroom is always clean and a chance to maybe get a bit in the cafeteria and ask where to stay or directions.... An opportunity to sell some books, if someone was taking a nursing degree who was a certified nursing assistant or a dipolma trained nurse, those books are very dear.. perhaps you are not the person to ask, but is it possible that someone contacted smith directly to his radio of someone being off the road, without going threw dispatch, just a thought, and do cell phones work in the Goose lane area....? Did smith have a cell phone... interesting Smith notes the time he was notified in the police report at 1935...8 minutes difference in the time the dispatcher notes in the 911 logs....strange?
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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not clear above about radioing Smith re: car off the road if someone could have done this without notifying dispatch initially.... whose voice did you hear on the radio, one person, a man, or woman, or several people can you elaborate... would it have been possible that Smith called in dispatch to say he was going to have a peek down the road as he was talking to someone who stated there was a car off the road, but if he got there and no one was there, left in a private vechile, implies that the car was still there...and if it was simply off the side of the road and locked and no damage to car just abandoned, then there would be no reason to panic, and in the meantime Smith got the call to the other accident, there may have been nothing to report, also there is the possibility that it was omitted from the log for evidentiary purposes... possible that Smith went back to check if vehicle was still there as he suspected it might be the same car, and the car was gone, and then he proceeded to the 112 accident site... likely not making sense here, as talking this through to myself, in an attempt to make sense why the car off the road in Swiftwater was not reported. If the car was gone, and it was the same car, Smith might have omitted saying this, as he did nothing about the first car off the road, and did not want to get in hot water explaining why he did nothing, i.e. call a tow truck report the car off the road... Speculating of course...
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peripeteia Nova Scotia
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confusing if Weeper thinks the accident was on 112, can you point this on a map Frank, would appreciate it or if you can tell me what street is the nearest intersection.
Are we correct to assume that you and Dectective Columbo disagree as to the place of the accident, this has already been asked....Columbo points the possible accident scene on Goose Lane...
Columbo, are there any guard rails near the Valley Road and Lodge Lane....thanks
near the lodge, is there a pond or brook to the
left, is there an incline leading up to the A-frame if you were walking up from the Lodge...
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FireCat
United States
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yankee wrote: A lot of people that live (lived) in NH move to Florida (or wish they could) for no other reason than to get away from the cold, snow, and ice. Didn't he move down there with his mom? There isn't necessarily anything weird about moving to Florida with your 90-year-old mom. Happens all the time.(at this time of year, can you blame them??)
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FireCat
United States
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Benjamin Franklyne wrote: <quoted text>
1. Decide to drive cars they thought to dangerous to drive the day before...
2. for over a hundred miles...
3. on icy roads...
4. while tired from lack of sleep...
5. to a place where she wasn't supposed to be as a student...
6. and a place no one expected her to be...
8. after taking time off from school, risking her academic record as an honor student...
9. without any compelling reason to do so...
<quoted text> Sure we do. Of course, "compelling" is open to interpretation. Something that's compelling to a stressed-out 20-year-old may not seem so to an outsider. We don't KNOW why Maura was up there.
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Shack
Sherborn, MA
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Peri, I am here listening/reading..I was minding
my manners in not interrupting you...but, I have
been nodding in agreement to most of your Posts.
Thought I would throw in something else here
just to get your head spinning again. ;-]
A local poster wrote some time ago that another
area towing service, Northland, had been called
by mistake that night, prior to the call to Lavoies...(wasn't noted in GCSL)
And...that photographs were taken that night.
I would think that those photographs are date stamped and stored in the file folders at HPD.
Back to you Peri......
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FireCat
United States
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Judged:
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Mason wrote: I should have added that I've never carried a package of blinker bulbs in my car and I don't know anyone who does that. They are inexpensive, burnout so infrequently, and always available at auto parts stores that are so ubiquitous to the environment that it doesn't make much sense to stock-up and carry them in your car.
I'd be suspicious if I saw them in a car and, lest we forget, they may not have been Maura's. On the other hand, in both my old VW and my old Honda, I routinely carried extra parts like bulbs and fuses (not to mention the occasional windshield wiper motor). Especially if the former were on sale or came in packages of more than I needed at one time.
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truth
Nashua, NH
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Judged:
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peripeteia Nova Scotia wrote: <quoted text>
Mason I do not believe that RO was the author initially of the red truck, I do not believe she told them this night...
When she did inform police they discounted her statement, because it was a considerable length of time when the article appeared in the paper, and I believe that RO felt that police did not take her seriously, so if law enforcement was stopping red trucks, the author of the suspectablity of a red truck being involved in some type of illegal doing did not come from RO, not that night.
I stated a few days ago, that police were called to PIKE HWY 25, at the store, regarding an incident in there. There is not mention in the Sherriff's log of police being dispatched there at 5:30 a.m. A red truck was involved. I found this on line, however, cannot remember if the log was from Haverhill. On the old MM site, there was information posted, as well as a picture of the store...
I thought at the time it might be associated with the suicide call at Lime Kiln road, the store is not far from the OLIVERI SCHOOL... Very interesting! So does anyone else think that the red truck was not invloved with the MM accident and in fact related to the suicide call at Lime Kiln Road? That also invloved a student aged girl, correct? Perhaps the red truck was someone concered for the girls and was out looking for her? That could explain the suspicious behavior when seeing RO??
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Quija
Concord, MA
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truth wrote: <quoted text>
Very interesting!
So does anyone else think that the red truck was not invloved with the MM accident and in fact related to the suicide call at Lime Kiln Road? That also invloved a student aged girl, correct?
Perhaps the red truck was someone concered for the girls and was out looking for her? That could explain the suspicious behavior when seeing RO?? It was a teenager, a male student with family from out of state. No call to the police had been officially logged in at that point (or showed up on the Sheriff's log release to the public, anyway)--- it was 2 hours later. IMO, Beckett School workers, counselors, administration, etc. might have been looking for him before making an official call to put it on the record.
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citigirl
Bridgewater, MA
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Judged:
1
truth wrote: <quoted text>
Very interesting!
So does anyone else think that the red truck was not invloved with the MM accident and in fact related to the suicide call at Lime Kiln Road? That also invloved a student aged girl, correct?
Perhaps the red truck was someone concered for the girls and was out looking for her? That could explain the suspicious behavior when seeing RO?? the suicide call was for a male.
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Mastermind
Boulder, CO
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truth wrote: <quoted text>
Very interesting!
So does anyone else think that the red truck was not invloved with the MM accident and in fact related to the suicide call at Lime Kiln Road? That also invloved a student aged girl, correct?
Perhaps the red truck was someone concered for the girls and was out looking for her? That could explain the suspicious behavior when seeing RO?? In my limited mind, the red truck is a big fat red herring.
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truth
Nashua, NH
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Mastermind wrote: <quoted text>
In my limited mind, the red truck is a big fat red herring. If so, then why would LE pull over red trucks at all? Unless they were not...
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