Where is MAURA MURRAY

Excerpts: Earl Nightingale
From The Essence of Success

Don't Follow The Follower

Processionary caterpillars travel in long, undulating lines, one creature behind the other. Jean Hanri Fabre, the French entomologist, once lead a group of these caterpillars onto the rim of a large flowerpot so that the leader of the procession found himself nose to tail with the last caterpillar in the procession, forming a circle without end or beginning.

Through sheer force of habit and, of course, instinct, the ring of caterpillars circled the flowerpot for seven days and seven nights, until they died from exhaustion and starvation. An ample supply of food was close at hand and plainly visible, but it was outside the range of the circle, so the caterpillars continued along the beaten path.

People often behave in a similar way. Habit patterns and ways of thinking become deeply established, and it seems easier and more comforting to follow them than to cope with change, even when that change may represent freedom, achievement, and success.

If someone shouts, "Fire!" it is automatic to blindly follow the crowd, and many thousands have needlessly died because of it. How many stop to ask themselves: Is this really the best way out of here?

So many people "miss the boat" because it's easier and more comforting to follow - to follow without questioning the qualifications of the people just ahead - than to do some independent thinking and checking.

A hard thing for most people to fully understand is that people in such numbers can be so wrong, like the caterpillars going around and around the edge of the flowerpot, with life and food just a short distance away. If most people are living that way, it must be right, they think. But a little checking will reveal that throughout all recorded history the majority of mankind has an unbroken record of being wrong about most things, especially important things. For a time we thought the earth was flat and later we thought the sun, stars, and planets traveled around the Earth. Both ideas are now considered ridiculous, but at the time they were believed and defended by the vast majority of followers. In the hindsight of history we must have looked like those caterpillars blindly following the follower out of habit rather than stepping out of line to look for the truth.

It's a good idea to step out of the line every once in a while and look around to see if the line is going where we want it to go. If it is not, it might be time for a new leader and a new direction.

Dawn wrote:

Thanks Snowy- it is helpful to know what has been going on is not something new. The fact it has gone on for 5 years is concerning. Didn't anyone other than Snowy ask for facts? Hard evidence - that is common sense when approaching a mystery. You first outline the facts - with info to back them up. Then move on to "possible" theories. Most important the PI's use and have used profilers. Weeper did mention profilers being used and would bet that LE has as well.
Also - with Wenatchee Child Sex ring - featured on 60 minutes - this is my home town - you want to believe the children - everyone hated LE ... then we found out - they were wrong and coached and LE coached the kids and they were in the wrong. LE could be wrong. I think putting pressure on the Govt would be a worthwhile effort.. as you know I sent a letter a few days after CNN had Maura Murray - on their webpage. I do like to keep her name out there. A stranger on this site might not even know what we are talking about half the time

I am nearly as "new" as you are, Dawn. Someone close to me was following this thread long before I did. He/she would comment that he/she came here for "new information", given we knew about Maura from news coverage, read some of the related articles, and had visited the website.

I found my initial conversations here to be "dizzying" at best...it was difficult to follow the disconnected and disorganized postings.

By staying long enough, one begins to realize that discussions and information are repeated over and over again.
The next realization becomes: what is true? what is fact? what is speculation?

To that end, my questions were never well received...I'll take credit for being impatient.
By reaching out to a few, I hoped to "humanize" my experience here. It helped.

Typically, the broader responses have been: what have YOU contributed? why is it your business at all? why are you being disruptive? let's get back to "finding Maura"!

OK, then.

The good news is that Advocator and others have beautifully organized information into an excellent workable, searchable format.
Personalities, undercurrents, and old-timers vs. new-comers will always remain a fact of life.

No one knows, to this minute, whether Maura disappeared from MA or from NH. So important.

It is odd that Maura's case doesn't receive on-going national coverage. Your suggestion to move in support of that goal may be very helpful.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, the one truth about participating in public forums is not to believe anything one may read in print.
Information will often be gathered, presented, and crafted to represent a certain point of view.
An agenda, if you will.

You finally noticed. Except in this situation, you are saying that you think White Wash pulled the subpoena out of her backside. That would be the most idiotic thing imaginable, police could easily see that it was fabricated as you imply.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
Rumor and speculation mixed with a smattering of factual information are not reliable sources from which to draw reasonably accurate conclusions.

Logic from extended observation.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
IF information is retained and withheld or only PARTIALLY revealed at a convenient time by forum participants, then this is dishonest, and suggests an attempt to influence public sentiment, beliefs, or opinions.

We noticed that, but not from the people you are complaining about.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
The Murray family has been accused of not sharing by way of gaps and omissions...but it is equally possible their accusers have failed to share, as well.

Who are you kidding? Take the "second phone call" for instance. The entirety of the evidence between published newspaper reports and what individuals connected to the family are completely at odds.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
This, and the fact that parties do not trust each other, has sustained roundabout conversations for a period of 5 years. None of this helps in "finding Maura".

Anyone that wants to find their missing loved one, I would think, would not start complaining if people contributed alternative explanations.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
I would caution anyone to look closely and consider original sources of information while always maintaining a degree of skepticism relative to this discussion.

That I can agree on.

I talked to legal they said in no shape or form is that a search warrant. They aren't even asking for a resident/persons to be searched.

Also - Ben Franklin - you can PM your number I have Sales Engineer that is willing to talk to you. Mind you he was laughing about Fred Leatherman as we all know about him from the news. He can prove his credentials and he has been here 13 years. He will gladly talk to you about phone records.

Which I have yet to the search warrant (wrong word) you dont go and search Sprint - you subpoena the legal dept and they forward to fraud. Again - common sense.

Let me know when you are ready to talk to Nathan. I will put my money where my mouth is - will you do the same.

Also - you sure do know alot about proxy servers from your post about Mason......... Interesting someone else sure knows alot about them too. You two have more in common than you think.

Hey Guys,

I wish I could write as well as some of you!(Snowy!!!) This is unedited and not proofed....

Red truck idea:

I just posted this under SATURN DAMAGE (near the top of the index on the other site).

I got an idea that the red truck might've (speculative) had a run-in with Maura's Saturn. They stopped... maybe he helped her free her car, or not.... maybe he got to look inside the Saturn and got to see the contents... she didn't want to exchange papers... red truck driver called LE to report accident.... he got some description of her car...she drove off... red truck driver (with minimal or no damage to truck) called LE to report that the DRIVER LEFT IN A PRIVATE VEHICLE. Maybe (if it was a coincidence LE was looking for red trucks all that night) he was there when LE arrived and informed them of WHO WAS DRIVING (A GIRL), what he saw in the car (ALCOHOL, IN DETAIL) and that's how CS knew there was alcohol missing later, near the weathered barn... as well as CS knowing it was a girl (altho the Atwood and Westman's might've said that it was female driver).

I don't think the red truck driver was a perp --- I think he was trying to help. His presence and behavior (on BH Road) so close to Maura's accident on 112/WB would be reckless for a perp. Maybe he just needed a "pit stop" or maybe he was looking for her because he was concerned about her condition (or both). I mean, THINK! Think of the ratio of good people to bad people! He was probably trying to help just like all the other locals who did that and got blasted for it!

One more thing: By waiting in the lit parking lot as RO walked up the hill to the store, the red truck driver was being reckless or trying to get caught since RO could've immediately called LE from inside the store... And THEN (just guessing) he was in the BH Road area later???) No, I think he was trying to help....

Hi its good to know that this hasnt been let go.My wife and myself lived less than a mile from where this happend at then time.And we moved 2 yrs later we moved there and bought or house in hopes to start a family but soon changed our mind when this all happened.I myself hiked the woods as well as lost river over and over again.To this day it still bothers me that so little was done.

Snowy White wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, the one truth about participating in public forums is not to believe anything one may read in print.
Information will often be gathered, presented, and crafted to represent a certain point of view.
An agenda, if you will.

You finally noticed. Except in this situation, you are saying that you think White Wash pulled the subpoena out of her backside. That would be the most idiotic thing imaginable, police could easily see that it was fabricated as you imply.

********

Ben Franklyne -

it's unfair to link WW's name to my post. i named no one, specifically, nor did i imply any meaning beyond my words.
you have twice attached "names" to my posts when i was generalizing (because that's how i think/process). in neither instance was i trying to make the points that you further documented.

anyway, i'm still having a hard time, even after many months, figuring out the perspective of groups who favor certain theories over others.
Dawn, too, seems to be trying to get a grip on where people are coming from....it appears she is nosey, but i don't think it is so.

i remain a neutral observer (not local/related/or think LE is "all bad"), by choice, i usually react only when something seems unfair to victims...this merely reflects my personality.

however, and just for the record, if i wanted to be specific and name names, which you seem to like to do...i'll state that i have always found Wowzer and Bill to be grounded and believable.
i'd offer that Mason is representative of the most studied and, most often, logical possibilities.
finally, i'd name Beagle and multi-personalities to offer the most unusual, albeit brilliant, presentations. i am not able to verify the truth in any or all of his work to know if his creative thinking is right on the money...or not.

i cannot argue about anything for or against information that is written as gospel but, in reality, is not known to be true.

You say:

"Anyone that wants to find their missing loved one, I would think, would not start complaining if people contributed alternative explanations."

Fair enough.

Quija wrote:

Hey Guys,
I wish I could write as well as some of you!(Snowy!!!) This is unedited and not proofed....
Red truck idea:
I just posted this under SATURN DAMAGE (near the top of the index on the other site).
I got an idea that the red truck might've (speculative) had a run-in with Maura's Saturn. They stopped... maybe he helped her free her car, or not.... maybe he got to look inside the Saturn and got to see the contents... she didn't want to exchange papers... red truck driver called LE to report accident.... he got some description of her car...she drove off... red truck driver (with minimal or no damage to truck) called LE to report that the DRIVER LEFT IN A PRIVATE VEHICLE. Maybe (if it was a coincidence LE was looking for red trucks all that night) he was there when LE arrived and informed them of WHO WAS DRIVING (A GIRL), what he saw in the car (ALCOHOL, IN DETAIL) and that's how CS knew there was alcohol missing later, near the weathered barn... as well as CS knowing it was a girl (altho the Atwood and Westman's might've said that it was female driver).
I don't think the red truck driver was a perp --- I think he was trying to help. His presence and behavior (on BH Road) so close to Maura's accident on 112/WB would be reckless for a perp. Maybe he just needed a "pit stop" or maybe he was looking for her because he was concerned about her condition (or both). I mean, THINK! Think of the ratio of good people to bad people! He was probably trying to help just like all the other locals who did that and got blasted for it!
One more thing: By waiting in the lit parking lot as RO walked up the hill to the store, the red truck driver was being reckless or trying to get caught since RO could've immediately called LE from inside the store... And THEN (just guessing) he was in the BH Road area later???) No, I think he was trying to help....

If this red truck driver was trying to help, he surely did not speak to LE and identify himself. The reason I say this is because his name would be plastered all over just like all the other NH witnesses (i.e SBD and the Westmans, the Marrots) Why would they name everyone but him. That does not make sense. However, that does not mean that the red truck driver did not try and help Maura. He/she could have been and just not have come forward with the information yet.

Quija wrote:

Hey Guys,
I wish I could write as well as some of you!(Snowy!!!) This is unedited and not proofed....
Red truck idea:
I just posted this under SATURN DAMAGE (near the top of the index on the other site).
I got an idea that the red truck might've (speculative) had a run-in with Maura's Saturn. They stopped... maybe he helped her free her car, or not.... maybe he got to look inside the Saturn and got to see the contents... she didn't want to exchange papers... red truck driver called LE to report accident.... he got some description of her car...she drove off... red truck driver (with minimal or no damage to truck) called LE to report that the DRIVER LEFT IN A PRIVATE VEHICLE. Maybe (if it was a coincidence LE was looking for red trucks all that night) he was there when LE arrived and informed them of WHO WAS DRIVING (A GIRL), what he saw in the car (ALCOHOL, IN DETAIL) and that's how CS knew there was alcohol missing later, near the weathered barn... as well as CS knowing it was a girl (altho the Atwood and Westman's might've said that it was female driver).
I don't think the red truck driver was a perp --- I think he was trying to help. His presence and behavior (on BH Road) so close to Maura's accident on 112/WB would be reckless for a perp. Maybe he just needed a "pit stop" or maybe he was looking for her because he was concerned about her condition (or both). I mean, THINK! Think of the ratio of good people to bad people! He was probably trying to help just like all the other locals who did that and got blasted for it!
One more thing: By waiting in the lit parking lot as RO walked up the hill to the store, the red truck driver was being reckless or trying to get caught since RO could've immediately called LE from inside the store... And THEN (just guessing) he was in the BH Road area later???) No, I think he was trying to help....

you say: "I mean, THINK! Think of the ratio of good people to bad people!"

i believe that is what is so draining here, Quija...you bring another perspective to the ever-present mindset that everyone is a perp in the North Country.

it always surprises me when surveys of the general population reveal that passers-by won't stop to assist others in need...because i know so many who wouldn't turn away, and indeed, would endanger their own lives for the sake of others.

Dawn wrote:

I talked to legal they said in no shape or form is that a search warrant. They aren't even asking for a resident/persons to be searched.

This isn't a search warrant. This is a SWORN AFFADAVIT.

Hi wolf. Welcome. Thanks for remembering Maura.

Snowy White wrote:

...you bring another perspective to the ever-present mindset that everyone is a perp in the North Country.

I still don't understand why people have this impression--that there's a mindset of that.

It is true that everyone mentioned in this case, by name or by proximity, has been scrutinized and considered a suspect. But that's because IT'S A CRIMINAL CASE. Scrutiny happens. It's not because anyone thinks everyone in the North Country is a perp. I don't think I've EVER heard anyone say that. And I KNOW I've seen several people refuting that, or qualifying that.

Maura's car had an accident in NH. That is the last known sighting of Maura's belongings, and the last presumed sighting of Maura. Therefore, someone IN THAT AREA AT THE TIME is very likely a perp.

That does not mean that there is a bushel of spoiled apples up there, and I really really wish people would stop being so defensive. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THERE ARE CRIMINALS EVERYWHERE. This particular criminal search is being concentrated in NH. Big whoop. I grew up in NYC and its environs. You want to talk about everyone being a perp by geography? Jeez.

After talking to legal - and those of you who work for a corp - should have access to a legal dept. Or personally know one. Legal dept/ attorney said that is NOT a legal document - plain and simple the language is NOT language used in a search warrant/affidavit/subpeona. I would encourage people to research. This also is not public record. I don't think WW had any malice and I think she has been persistant. my guess is maybe - dont want to offend her but maybe someone gave this to her to quiet her up from asking questions. dont know and not going to add another theory.

ask an attorney. you will find your answer.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
I still don't understand why people have this impression--that there's a mindset of that.
It is true that everyone mentioned in this case, by name or by proximity, has been scrutinized and considered a suspect. But that's because IT'S A CRIMINAL CASE. Scrutiny happens. It's not because anyone thinks everyone in the North Country is a perp. I don't think I've EVER heard anyone say that. And I KNOW I've seen several people refuting that, or qualifying that.
Maura's car had an accident in NH. That is the last known sighting of Maura's belongings, and the last presumed sighting of Maura. Therefore, someone IN THAT AREA AT THE TIME is very likely a perp.
That does not mean that there is a bushel of spoiled apples up there, and I really really wish people would stop being so defensive. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THERE ARE CRIMINALS EVERYWHERE. This particular criminal search is being concentrated in NH. Big whoop. I grew up in NYC and its environs. You want to talk about everyone being a perp by geography? Jeez.

You're right...criminals are everywhere; and with good fortune and reasonable caution, we can hope to carry on another few good years.

I don't presume LE in NH to be "bad" (as some do), or that "a bad guy/serial killer/rapist is on the loose" (as some do) because Maura went missing, although anything is possible.

These sentiments, if repeated often enough, plant seeds of distrust and cast an unfavorable light on an otherwise special location that some call home, and a peaceful and beautiful destination to others.

People are divided, though. They just don't know what to think...where is she?

Our association has been with Stowe, VT for many years...and, truthfully, I've come to question whether the "locals" there are predatory, by extension, given all the hype here! It certainly hasn't been our experience...not ever.

People who tie together the missing and murdered over a period of 25+ years and several states seem to be really fearful and convinced they are unsafe.

I don't mean to start anything up....but just to answer you, FireCat.

I see the dilemma....I am thinking out loud, as Peri does, and I'm sorry not to offer more than opinion.
A nod to all in your 5th year who don't give up and continue to offer all of your caring and skills.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
This isn't a search warrant. This is a SWORN AFFADAVIT.

My mistake. I believe I, and maybe a few others?, wrote subpoena/search warrant. Sorry.

Hmm, the general public has been made aware there is a serial killer at large in the Wilmington, North Carolina and I'm not fearful and convinced I am unsafe.

elsewherebriefly wrote:

<quoted text>
My mistake. I believe I, and maybe a few others?, wrote subpoena/search warrant. Sorry.

Hey, honest mistakes happen. It's all good.:)

This might be a duplicate post --- the first one vanished!

Sara wrote:

<quoted text>
If this red truck driver was trying to help, he surely did not speak to LE and identify himself. The reason I say this is because his name would be plastered all over just like all the other NH witnesses (i.e SBD and the Westmans, the Marrots) Why would they name everyone but him. That does not make sense. However, that does not mean that the red truck driver did not try and help Maura. He/she could have been and just not have come forward with the information yet.

Sara - What you said about his name not being plastered all over DOES make sense. But the "silent witness" who went unidentified for a couple of years until ID'ed as TM, might instead (or in addition) have been the red truck driver? Also, the witness who worked at the Cottage Hospital wasn't mentioned for years and still has not been ID'ed in the press.

What the heck was he doing pulled over the side of the road on BH Rd? Outside the car? In the woods? It's SO close to where Maura was, but WE DO NOT KNOW THE TIME HE WAS THERE. Why weren't the scent dogs brought to that spot? Guess the report of his suspicious red truck didn't come in early enough for that scent dog search? Or, if he was above suspicion and just helping by looking around (like Butch did), maybe where he was searching wasn't relevant for scent dogs. Maybe this IS a perp but there is not enough evidence gathered for a conviction? Who knows? I feel it's either a PERP or someone above suspicion.

My instincts tell me that a perp would not be really successful cruising the back roads in a somewhat isolated area in winter looking for a vulnerable woman --- walking, jogging, or having just been in a car accident. The roads probably weren't great and it is surprising that there was both RO walking to the store and Maura being out on the road after an accident within a mile of each other. BUT, wouldn't a perp do better at night outside a Woodsville bar or in the parking lot of a 24-hour-convenience store or strip mall? You go where the prey is! I've watched foxes!

How can you be sure he didn't speak to LE and ID himself? Maybe that's why LE STOPPED stopping red trucks within, what, about 12 hours? IIRC/JMO

Why didn't LE spread the word about red trucks? I'm guessing they got the facts about it (within a short time since they apparently didn't continue to stop red pickup trucks) and knew it wasn't a lead for finding Maura, just like the part of the Sheriff's log that was CUT (and pasted) was said here not to be related. We only found out about the red truck from RO, and then from looking at the Grafton County Sheriff's Log for traffic stops that night.

I guess there's a chance in this scenario that he was the 5th last person to see Maura that night?

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
You're right...criminals are everywhere; and with good fortune and reasonable caution, we can hope to carry on another few good years.
I don't presume LE in NH to be "bad" (as some do), or that "a bad guy/serial killer/rapist is on the loose" (as some do) because Maura went missing, although anything is possible.
These sentiments, if repeated often enough, plant seeds of distrust and cast an unfavorable light on an otherwise special location that some call home, and a peaceful and beautiful destination to others.
People are divided, though. They just don't know what to think...where is she?
Our association has been with Stowe, VT for many years...and, truthfully, I've come to question whether the "locals" there are predatory, by extension, given all the hype here! It certainly hasn't been our experience...not ever.
People who tie together the missing and murdered over a period of 25+ years and several states seem to be really fearful and convinced they are unsafe.
I don't mean to start anything up....but just to answer you, FireCat.
I see the dilemma....I am thinking out loud, as Peri does, and I'm sorry not to offer more than opinion.
A nod to all in your 5th year who don't give up and continue to offer all of your caring and skills.

And I certainly appreciate intelligent, thoughtful, courteous discussion!:)

People are by nature either trusting or fearful. It changes by situation, by experience, by all sorts of things. When I was in college in NYC, every man walking down a poorly lit street was a rapist, even though I'd grown up in and around NYC. Now, I don't have that perception of people. Perception changes.

I have no idea what I'm saying. Again, just thinking out loud.

It is titled - sworn affidavit for a search warrant..........What is to be searched is not on the document.????? That is the whole reason for one. You have to present your findings to the judge to issue your request. Also missing is the sworn info - on this date before john doe on the 21 day of feb. We know this is not the one for her car - because that was done the next day..
Check with an attorney or legal dept to ease your mind.
More important is where is the request to get the wireless info - that is what we are really after. We don't know for a fact that a call came from the londonderry site ( finally on a berry - derry)I do not see supporting evedince to show me this has been leaked.