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Where is MAURA MURRAY

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Wowzer

Franconia, NH

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#13708
Monday Feb 9
 

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The article in today's Caledonian is quite interesting to say the least.
Is Fred Murray talking about the evidence (carpet samples) when he states that he's bewildered why the PI's haven't turned over the evidence that they found during their search in MT Lakes Estates? He also says that as of last summer it had NOT been tested or turned over as evidence and was being kept refrigerated.
If this is true and it is the carpet then why did someone state here the type of blood on the carpet was menstrual blood. It would have to be tested to know this. If it hasn't been tested then why was it ever said???
Anyone know who the PI's are that are holding the evidence or the reason why they are holding it?
Something just isn't right with this picture.
http://caledonianrecord.com/Main.asp...
FireCat

United States

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#13709
Monday Feb 9
 

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Beagle wrote:
Obviously, there are limits to what can be said on this forum. I would suggest that there was a strong to extreme pro-life agenda on the old MMM forum. Anyone who wants to discover the pro-life interest is free to do so. It's not hard to do.
In fact, I'll bet that a small determined group of posters on this board already know this to be the case and are unnerved by its mention because they themselves are members of the extreme pro-life movement, which justifies any action, including lying, intimidation, and murder, in order to prevent abortion.
I don't earnestly doubt that you wish for Maura to be found, Alden. I don't. I know plenty of paranoid schizophrenics who are otherwise totally nice people.(that may sound like a joke. It isn't.)
But seriously. Extreme pro-life agenda? Are you serious?(And now I'm given to wonder. Is THIS why you were thrown off UMass property for the next 24 months? Because it weren't for no damn parking sticker question.)
Because, yeah. I've read all of both forums. There is NO AGENDA ON ANY OF THEM EXCEPT FINDING MAURA.
Please please please tell me you were hoping to include me in that small group of violently masturbatory terrified pro-lifers who love to bomb abortion clinics that allegedly make up the network of Maura Murray's web supporters. Please. Because that would be the funniest damn thing I have ever heard, and I could use the laugh today.
No one doubts the validity of your theory because you have a mental health issue per se, Beags. They doubt the validity of your theory BECAUSE IT HAS HUGE GAPING HOLES WHERE THERE OUGHT TO BE LOGIC. Your reasoning is faulty.
Sure, there's "evidence" of a vast right-wing conspiracy to cover up the "fact" that Maura was murdered for her ovaries. If you're looking through that lens. Because when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Is there ACTUAL, RELEVANT FACTUAL evidence based on ACTUAL, TRUE HARD PROOF, which comes from ACTUAL REAL LIVE FACTS, rather than a string of bizarre coincidences? Um, not so much.
Vast pro-life agenda. That's a good one. I like it much better than the stolen art ring conspiracy theory, OR the there's something in the water conspiracy theory, OR the illegal sports performance enhancing drugs conspiracy theory.
Why is it you're the only one who thinks there's some sort of vast conspiracy?(even the hit and run theory is only a conspiracy of two or three at most. but geez. yours, as you freely point out, ranges up and down the entire eastern damn seaboard.)
FireCat

United States

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#13710
Monday Feb 9
 

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suzanne wrote:
<quoted text>
Fred stated this to a local reporter on Feb 12 2004
Well, yeah. For one thing, she was upset because she had crashed his new car. Was she upset about something else? The article doesn't say. Was she SCARED? It doesn't say that, either.
FireCat

United States

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#13711
Monday Feb 9
 
Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>
With every bit of respect - no slam intended - I would submit that "forensic" and "astrology" are nearly mutually exclusive words that cannot be used in the ordinary sense.
Forensic means expert testimony in a courtroom on a topic the real-world veracity of which has already been established and accepted by the court.
Which leaves out astrology. For good reason.
Um, not quite. Close, but not quite.

1fo·ren·sic
Pronunciation:
\f&#601;-&#712;ren(t)- sik,-&#712;ren-zik\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin forensis public, forensic, from forum forum
Date:
1659
1 : belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate
2 : argumentative , rhetorical
3 : relating to or dealing with the application of scientific knowledge to legal problems <forensic medicine> <forensic science> <forensic pathologist> <forensic experts>
— fo·ren·si·cal·ly \-si-k(&#601;-)l&#275; ,-zi-\ adverb

In other words, "acceptable to the court" depends, essentially, on the court. Also, on your use of the word "scientific".
FireCat

United States

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#13712
Monday Feb 9
 

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Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>
With all due respect - not being a wiseass here despite how it sounds (apologies in advance if necessary, nothing personal)...
If ENCOURAGING investigating the Amherst end of this case gets you ignored, then what might actually INVESTIGATING (within legal limits) the Amherst end of this case get you? Trashed on this board? How terrible. How about getting threatened by a police officer? Not even a UMass police officer. Not nicely. Not as a request. As a real nasty threat. How about getting tailed, as in harassed, by a PI who has investigated this case? Who works for an immediate family member's best friend?(And that's a FACT from the horse's mouth because it's my family I'm referring to.) How about being told by another person investigating this case that she will be stealing and rummaging through your trash and keeping you under surveillance?
Oh, but what would a paranoid schizophrenic know? If I say these are veiled threats, then of course I must be paranoid. Veiled threats don't really exist in the real world, do they? Sorry, they do. All the time. For those who actually live in the real world, at street level.
With all due respect, there are several posters who give lip service to looking into Amherst, but if they actually DO look into Amherst themselves in any SUBSTANTIAL way, it's something I'm unaware of.
The more you look into this case, the nastier the trashing. And the vast majority of the trashing does NOT take place in this thread, any more than the entire investigation, and the effort to thwart that investigation, takes place in this thread.
Oh yeah. Nothing personal, Alden.

I'm calling bullshit. It's VERY personal for you. You've made that ABUNDANTLY clear over time, and have just done so again.
FireCat

United States

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#13713
Monday Feb 9
 

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.....note to self and anyone else who wanders into this post tonight: It is, in fact, a full moon.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Gloucester, MA

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#13714
Tuesday Feb 10
 
FireCat wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't earnestly doubt that you wish for Maura to be found, Alden. I don't. I know plenty of paranoid schizophrenics who are otherwise totally nice people.(that may sound like a joke. It isn't.)
But seriously. Extreme pro-life agenda? Are you serious?(And now I'm given to wonder. Is THIS why you were thrown off UMass property for the next 24 months? Because it weren't for no damn parking sticker question.)
Because, yeah. I've read all of both forums. There is NO AGENDA ON ANY OF THEM EXCEPT FINDING MAURA.
Please please please tell me you were hoping to include me in that small group of violently masturbatory terrified pro-lifers who love to bomb abortion clinics that allegedly make up the network of Maura Murray's web supporters. Please. Because that would be the funniest damn thing I have ever heard, and I could use the laugh today.
No one doubts the validity of your theory because you have a mental health issue per se, Beags. They doubt the validity of your theory BECAUSE IT HAS HUGE GAPING HOLES WHERE THERE OUGHT TO BE LOGIC. Your reasoning is faulty.
Sure, there's "evidence" of a vast right-wing conspiracy to cover up the "fact" that Maura was murdered for her ovaries. If you're looking through that lens. Because when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Is there ACTUAL, RELEVANT FACTUAL evidence based on ACTUAL, TRUE HARD PROOF, which comes from ACTUAL REAL LIVE FACTS, rather than a string of bizarre coincidences? Um, not so much.
Vast pro-life agenda. That's a good one. I like it much better than the stolen art ring conspiracy theory, OR the there's something in the water conspiracy theory, OR the illegal sports performance enhancing drugs conspiracy theory.
Why is it you're the only one who thinks there's some sort of vast conspiracy?(even the hit and run theory is only a conspiracy of two or three at most. but geez. yours, as you freely point out, ranges up and down the entire eastern damn seaboard.)
Gotta' hand it to you, FireCat... great content. ;-)
You shouldn't diagnose, tsk tsk...but the professor can surely deliver a strong message!

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Gloucester, MA

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#13715
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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Beagle wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't totally understand the connection either, but pro-life people, and a couple of police officers, have sure made their presence known in my life. Strong and loud and clear. And real, real unpleasantly. And no, it's not the way some poster or two will twist the truth to make me look bad or paranoid or something like that.
I rather doubt any poster on this board has had someone show up at his sister's house 1500 miles away with a message to her for me to keep my mouth shut. That's the same as his saying we know not only where you live and how to get to you, but we know how to get to your sister, too. I don't go for that kind of stuff. I get kind of upset when someone threatens me that way.
I get kind of upset when people come to my house in the middle of the night and move things around in the backyard just to let me know they were there. Only hours after having posted fresh information.
This list of OFF line harassment is endless. I didn't go looking for this fight. It came to me.
As far as I'm concerned these so-called PI's and their cloney cyber bullies are just part and parcel of the whole goddamn thing.
Thank you for your reply.
This whole matter is unspeakably sad and bizarre. Surely, tragedy should not be heaped on tragedy, and a priority would be to stay safe, Beagle.

“beauty ~ nature ~ the roar”

Joined: Jun 12, 2008

Comments: 643

Danvers, MA

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#13716
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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Beagle, how about sitting down with Fred Murray? No one else quite matters as much as he does.
Sara

Bermuda

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#13717
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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As for the idea that she may have been killed or abducted in Amherst and her car dumped in NH on 112, by intuition I do not agree, although I have no way of knowing. There is footage of her buying the booz and withdrawing money from her ATM, alone on both occasions.

Good morning John,
Just want you to know that this so called video has actually been a cloud of mystery. We are not even 100% sure it exists(even though it says it on Wikipedia). The craziest thing to me is apparently her family has not even seen this video. Back in one of my posts I had asked the question, how did LE know it was her on this video if her own family had not identified her on it.
Sara

Bermuda

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#13718
Tuesday Feb 10
 
Wowzer wrote:
The article in today's Caledonian is quite interesting to say the least.
Is Fred Murray talking about the evidence (carpet samples) when he states that he's bewildered why the PI's haven't turned over the evidence that they found during their search in MT Lakes Estates? He also says that as of last summer it had NOT been tested or turned over as evidence and was being kept refrigerated.
If this is true and it is the carpet then why did someone state here the type of blood on the carpet was menstrual blood. It would have to be tested to know this. If it hasn't been tested then why was it ever said???
Anyone know who the PI's are that are holding the evidence or the reason why they are holding it?
Something just isn't right with this picture.
http://caledonianrecord.com/Main.asp...
Wow, I just don't understand what is going on here. I think this LE department needs some accountability. Why would they say 75%, give the family hope and then come back two years later and say we got nothing. Here is a message to your local LE, RELEASE THE INFORMATION to the family. You are all out of excuses LE!!!
John

Alexandria, VA

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#13719
Tuesday Feb 10
 
FireCat wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually John that's one of those things that gets repeated so often people think it's a fact, especially if they've just gotten on board (hi by the way). Did you know that there is only ONE videotape? I can't recall off the top of my head if it's the ATM or the liquor store, but there's only tape at one of those two places. Weird, no?
Thanks for your reply and the info.

I did not know that. Is she known by other means to have visited both places (i.e., witnesses)? Is it the case that someone inferred that she bought the booz based on the fact that there was booz in her car? There seemed to be recountings of exactly what kind of booz she bought, so maybe that was the tape and maybe they knew she visited the ATM via bank transaction activity, not by tape?

Hey, is there a limit on the lengh of posts? I keep trying to post a longer text idea I have but it does not seem to work.
John

Alexandria, VA

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#13720
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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PART ONE:

Hello Everyone.
There is a concept in the sceintific world called Occam’s Razor. It says that the theory that most simply explains the known facts is the one most likely to be proven correct. In my own amateurish way, I have been trying to apply that concept to Maura’s disappearance.
There are A LOT of possibilities. I have seen many of them speculated upon here: that she was not in the car, that she was kidnapped for her ovaries. These ideas and others all are possible and in a case so baffling, they merit some degree of consideration. No disrespect intended here to the bearers of any of these theories and their arguments.
But if you apply occam’s razor – my approach for now – it takes a convoluted and complicated fact pattern for which there is no evidence (that I know of) to start to pursue these theories. In other words, there is more in assumption than evidence to make these theories work, in my opinion. As such, for the moment, I tried to look at all the known or speculated facts and look for the simplest explanation of each. That led me to conclusions like that she was there at 112 and Old Peter’s Road and she was not kidnapped to have her ovaries harvested.
After going through this process, many of the facts are explained by a simple theory: she was upset about something, she wanted to get out of dodge, she drove up there, she had an accident, she was in the wrong the place at the wrong time, she may have been drinking and therefore been more vulnerable, someone abducted her.

That said, this simplest theory for explaining MOST of the facts does not explain them all. There are three issues for which there is NO simple explanation, at least as I see it.

1.Why was her car headed east on 112? There is no conceivable destination for Maura, given what we know, for which that was her most direct route. If she was headed to Stowe or Burlington, she should have taken I-89 back at White River Junction. If she was headed to Bartlett, she should have taken 302, particularly in the winter, particuarly if traveling alone, and she would have known that, being familiar with the area.

2.Why was their a rag in the tail pipe? The only purpose of putting a rag in a tail pipe is to prevent the car from starting, or because you want to induce a backfire, or to make it stall.

3. What in that 1:00 a.m. call upset her so severely that she had to leave work early?

SEE PART TWO
John

Alexandria, VA

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#13721
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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PART TWO (see PART ONE)

That said, this simplest theory for explaining MOST of the facts does not explain them all. There are three issues for which there is NO simple explanation, at least as I see it.

1. Why was her car headed east on 112? There is no conceivable destination for Maura, given what we know, for which that was her most direct route. If she was headed to Stowe or Burlington, she should have taken I-89 back at White River Junction. If she was headed to Bartlett, she should have taken 302, particularly in the winter, particuarly if traveling alone, and she would have known that, being familiar with the area.

2.Why was their a rag in the tail pipe? The only purpose of putting a rag in a tail pipe is to prevent the car from starting, or because you want to induce a backfire, or to make it stall.

3. What in that 1:00 a.m. call upset her so severely that she had to leave work early?
So what is the simplest way to explain these three additional issues? I have taken a shot at it. Not saying this is correct or anything more than a guess, but I would interested to hear what others think.

Maura was involved with a man beside her boyfriend. This might find some corroboration in the nature of her communications with Rausch around this time, which were both sappy and distant. The relationship was a secret. He was driving her car and hit Vasi. After leaving the scene, 40 minutes later, he calls her and tells her that he was involved in a hit and run with her car. This would likely upset her. There would also be some damage to her car. She and the man eventually decide to get out of Dodge for a time, in the aftermath of the accident. Maura starts looking for destinations. By the time the Saturn departs Amherst on Feb. 9, they may or may not have had a reservation somewhere. She gets the booz and some money to pay for the room. At some point prior to departing or during the trip, the idea comes to them to stage an accident to explain the damage to her car from the Vasi incident. This would also explain why it took 3.5 hours from Maura’s presumed depature time (4:00 p.m. after buying the booz and visiting the ATM) to the time of the accident, just before 7:30. At conservative speeds, that is a 2.5 hour trip. Less than that if you marginally exceed the speed limit in I-91. In other words, the extra time is explained by the fact that Maura and the man were looking for a suitable location to stage the accident.
This theory does not directly postulate an idea about who put the rag in the tail pipe, but it is more consistent with the rag being there than Maura or someone else being alone in the car. We know the rag came from hre car’s roadside emergency kit. Therefore, someone inside the car most likely put it in the tail pipe. As mentioned, other than making the car not startable, it is difficult to think why you would put a rag in a tail pipe. Nobody would worry about a car being hot wired in rural NH. The suggestion to me is that one person who was in the car did not want the other person to be able to start the car, suggesting perhaps that one of them had reason to depart while the other stayed at the scene.

This does not explain what ultimately happened to Maura. But, based on what I know, I feel it is the best (and simplest explanation) of how the car destinated on 112 east and why she was upset by the call at work, given both the simply explained and more exotic facts of the case. Moreover, it is more consistent with the rag in the tail pipe than Maura being alone.
Not asserting this as the truth, but just as a feeling. Wonder what others might think.
John

Alexandria, VA

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#13722
Tuesday Feb 10
 
Sara wrote:
As for the idea that she may have been killed or abducted in Amherst and her car dumped in NH on 112, by intuition I do not agree, although I have no way of knowing. There is footage of her buying the booz and withdrawing money from her ATM, alone on both occasions.
Good morning John,
Just want you to know that this so called video has actually been a cloud of mystery. We are not even 100% sure it exists(even though it says it on Wikipedia). The craziest thing to me is apparently her family has not even seen this video. Back in one of my posts I had asked the question, how did LE know it was her on this video if her own family had not identified her on it.
Thanks for this info. I did not realize that at all.
Wowzer

Franconia, NH

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#13723
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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Sara wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, I just don't understand what is going on here. I think this LE department needs some accountability. Why would they say 75%, give the family hope and then come back two years later and say we got nothing. Here is a message to your local LE, RELEASE THE INFORMATION to the family. You are all out of excuses LE!!!
Your reply makes no sense and has nothing to do with the questions I asked.
My next question would be why are you turning my questions into the direction of blaming the local LE once again.
It was the PI's according to Fred Murray himself that has withheld evidence by not having it tested and storing it in a refrigerator.
There is more than one path here so don't jump on someone when they wander off the more popular path as it may hold new and different answers that could help.
FireCat

United States

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#13724
Tuesday Feb 10
 
John,

as I said, I don't recall which video exists and which doesn't. This morning's muddled instinct is to say that the ATM video is the one that exists (citigirl can probably confirm this). There was a liquor store receipt in the car, which is what prompts me to say this. But in any case, there is only one video. UMass police were the ones who identified it as Maura. And yes, it is terribly weird.
propaganda firetruck

Boulder, CO

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#13725
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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I can't believe how quickly people forget the information, opinions, and propaganda that has been posted in this forum.

Just to remind you all, many posters participating on this forum doubt the existence of the two video.

I believe it was citigirl who said there was only one video and that it was the ATM video (I believe she also said that no one in Maura's family ever saw it). So many people doubt the existence of the second video (liquor store) that it was probably the result of misinformation or lies.

This is very simple: the fact that LE considers this an ongoing investigation in no way precludes the fact that no one saw the videos. Videos of crimes in progress, of missing persons right before vanishing, and a load of other tapes used by police in criminal investigations are shown to the public all the time. Turn on your local news station and watch it for a few days, I bet you will see one. But that's not all. If the tape shows Maura alone withdrawing money from the ATM (as LE claims) then there is no reason not to show this tape to everyone, especially to the public, and especially in the days, weeks, months following her disappearance, but no one ever saw it.

So, which is it, does the tape not exist, or does it contain footage of something other than what has been reported? In either case, why?
FireCat

United States

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#13726
Tuesday Feb 10
 

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Wowzer wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reply makes no sense and has nothing to do with the questions I asked.
My next question would be why are you turning my questions into the direction of blaming the local LE once again.
It was the PI's according to Fred Murray himself that has withheld evidence by not having it tested and storing it in a refrigerator.
There is more than one path here so don't jump on someone when they wander off the more popular path as it may hold new and different answers that could help.
Wowzer, it may have been a simple misreading, or a lumping together of LE with PI in this case. I actually took her post as in support of yours. I read it to mean she had the same questions as you--as in, what is going on here that the family isn't getting answers? From whoever they're not getting answers from in any particular instance.

In any case, I've been chewing that paragraph you referred to around in my head all night too......and yes, wondering why it hasn't been tested yet. Whatever it is.

My instinct is to trust the PI team--and I admit that is perhaps a bias; I have never met or spoken to a member of NHSP or HPD--and my assumption is that if they haven't tested something, it's for a darn good reason. I have no idea what that reason might be (nothing to test it against? lack of sufficient existent technology? An extremely long backlog at the lab? who knows?) and, like you, I don't even know what it is they're waiting to test.

Weird weird weird. I was, on the other hand, surprised to read about them withholding information from Fred, because I know (for a fact, from experience) that they're much better at keeping lines of communication open than the police have been, even just to say "yeah, hi, we're working on it but we can't tell you details."
Wowzer

Franconia, NH

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#13727
Tuesday Feb 10
 
FireCat wrote:
John,
as I said, I don't recall which video exists and which doesn't. This morning's muddled instinct is to say that the ATM video is the one that exists (citigirl can probably confirm this). There was a liquor store receipt in the car, which is what prompts me to say this. But in any case, there is only one video. UMass police were the ones who identified it as Maura. And yes, it is terribly weird.
***Firecat wrote: But in any case, there is only one video. UMass police were the ones who identified it as Maura. And yes, it is terribly weird.***
I remember many questions asking how Maura was identified on the video since it wasn't shown to the family but was it ever said that it was the UMass police that identified her or is this a new bit of information?
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