Where is MAURA MURRAY

The PI's have not ruled out homicide. This a recovery operation. I will look for the article - the PI's stated they didn't test the carpet. Might be in Weeper's files on the other site.

Mason wrote:

As Elsewhere Briefly noted a few messages back, Weeper disclosed that the blood on the carpet was menstrual blood. This suggests that the source of the blood did not bleed out and die. In other words, the PIs ruled out homicide as the explanation for the blood and likely ruled out Maura as the source of the blood as well since a lab must have analyzed the blood stain.
Therefore, the whole story about the cadaver dogs going bonkers and LE not testing the sample that the PIs gave them is irrelevant.
Why isn't that conclusion obvious to everyone and why is Fred Murray still talking about the matter?
Fred Leatherman

Indeed, why aren't lots of conclusions obvious?

A closely related story to the blood stained carpet is the story about the knife that someone presented to Fred Murray along with information that a close relative of the person who gave the knife to Mr. Murray had confessed on his death bed to killing Maura with the knife. Not coincidentally, the person who allegedly gave the dying declaration, lived in the A-Frame and I imagine that the chap who told the story about the dying declaration and gave the knife to Mr. Murray was the reason why the PIs searched the A-Frame.

Seems abundantly clear now that the entire episode was a scam to get money out of Mr. Murray and the NHSP recognized it was a scam long before Mr. Murray or the PIs did.

So, again. Why did Mr. Murray selectively wade back into this fiasco, if not to take an undeserved shot at the PIs and the cops?

Interesting that he didn't complain about the knife this time.

I guess it should be very clear by now that I side with the cops on this case because I really do not respect or trust Mr. Murray.

I made a pretty decent living for almost 30 years defending clients by putting the law enforcement investigation on trial. No one ever has accused me of being biased in favor of the cops. Nevertheless, I support them in this matter.

Dawn wrote:

The PI's have not ruled out homicide. This a recovery operation. I will look for the article - the PI's stated they didn't test the carpet. Might be in Weeper's files on the other site.

Someone is obviously not telling the truth. Either it was tested and half the sample was sent to LE(backs up statement of it being menstrual blood)or it wasn't tested.

Dawn wrote:

The PI's have not ruled out homicide. This a recovery operation. I will look for the article - the PI's stated they didn't test the carpet. Might be in Weeper's files on the other site.

I said that I believe the PIs have ruled out the theory that Maura was a victim of homicidal violence in the A-Frame. I did not state that they have ruled out homicide as the cause of her death somewhere else. Weeper has referred to this case as a recovery operation and the PIs will continue searching for her remains in the spring.

Maybe he's right or maybe he's wrong.

I don't believe Maura is dead. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not willing to assume he's right because, for example, I have almost 30-years of experience scrutinizing death investigations and forensic testing as a defense attorney and a forensic consultant. I do not agree with his and Detective Columbo's opinion that the Saturn was involved in a previous accident 1 to 3 miles from the location where the SBD saw it and I do not believe that the accident was staged. I do not believe a bad guy killed her and I do not believe she committed suicide.

If they find her remains, I will change my mind. Until then, I'm going to assume she is alive, but for some as yet unknown reason, she does not want to have contact with her family.

BTW, think about this for a minute.

If your daughter was missing and you feared that she was murdered in a residence at a specific location, such as the A-Frame, based on the same set of circumstances that I outlined previously, would you not arrange to have a discreet portion of the blood stain tested by a competent private DNA forensic lab to know whether your daughter's blood was on that carpet?

I sure as hell would.

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
I said that I believe the PIs have ruled out the theory that Maura was a victim of homicidal violence in the A-Frame. I did not state that they have ruled out homicide as the cause of her death somewhere else. Weeper has referred to this case as a recovery operation and the PIs will continue searching for her remains in the spring.
Maybe he's right or maybe he's wrong.
I don't believe Maura is dead. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm wrong.
I'm not willing to assume he's right because, for example, I have almost 30-years of experience scrutinizing death investigations and forensic testing as a defense attorney and a forensic consultant. I do not agree with his and Detective Columbo's opinion that the Saturn was involved in a previous accident 1 to 3 miles from the location where the SBD saw it and I do not believe that the accident was staged. I do not believe a bad guy killed her and I do not believe she committed suicide.
If they find her remains, I will change my mind. Until then, I'm going to assume she is alive, but for some as yet unknown reason, she does not want to have contact with her family.

Could you clarify your reasoning? I am quite interested in what you have to say, particularly your conclusions. Would like to know more about their basis. Other than citing your years of experience, you don't give any. In particular, what makes you think she is alive?

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
LG,
LE would not tell him anything. I wasn't referring to them. I was referring to him complaining about the PIs not testing the sample they retained. Apparently, they did and, according to the usual procedure, they would have arranged for it to be tested with his consent and he would have paid for it.
How could he not know the result?
Do you now understand what and why I am asking?
Fred Leatherman

As the PI's have stated, any and all evidence is turned over to LE.

The PI's would not, separate from LE, arrange for testing of this specimen. Chain of custody. Right?

I basically doubt the disturbing phone call was made for the purpose of informing Maura that she was pregnant. It could have been, but the call was late. If it were from a reputable testing source, such as a doctor's office or pregnancy counseling center, they would have probably called her during the day or evening, not at 1:00 AM. And I would guess, but could be totally wrong here, that lab results are usually not given over the phone anyway. Maybe they are.

There are certainly tons of possible reasons for the upsetting phone call beside the Vasi hit. And as a previous poster correctly pointed out, Maura may have been in a shaky state for a number of days before the late Thursday night (Friday AM) call.

But a Vasi hit followed less than an hour later by an upsetting phone call, followed by a middle of the night trip to dad's motel room, followed by a Hadley car crash (itself an overlooked mystery), followed by a damaged Saturn found in NH, followed by a missing Saturn driver...

Yes, it's a possibility that Maura hit Vasi. And there are maybe one or two reasons she might have been on a short, fast trip in the neighborhood of Chestnut or Gray Streets Thursday night. Which means she almost certainly would have taken Triangle back toward her job at SW.

Or she may have driven to the far end of Triangle and hit Vasi on the way back coming up over the top of the hill where the road suddenly curves and where cars frequently go a little off the right side of the road onto the crosswalk and the sidewalk beside the chain link fence near ARHS.

Or someone else may have been driving the Saturn back TOWARD SW from the far end of Triangle (near the intersection of Main St. and a little west of the Salem area). If anyone wants a scenario free of stem cells and abortion wars, the Vasi hit ain't half bad. In fact, there are a couple of arrows that point toward a Vasi hit that have probably been overlooked by most everyone. Although I think some months ago one poster may have understood what was meant by Maura's possibly protecting the identity of the Saturn's driver.

But no matter what, if the Vasi hit is central to Maura's disappearance, the Saturn was almost certainly not parked in lot 12 early Friday AM or on subsequent nights.

A potential case of motor vehicle homicide, which is what the Vasi hit would have meant to the Amherst PD for at least the first two days after Vasi was taken to the hospital, would have been treated fairly seriously. But a Vasi hit would very likely have been investigated by Amherst PD, not UMass PD. I would assume, not necessarily correctly, that a hit and run investigation also includes trying to find the offending driver. But UMass PD is handling the investigation into Maura's disappearance, not Amherst PD.

Maybe there is some kind of juridictional reason for that. I doubt that simply because Maura and Vasi were both UMass students that an off-campus hit and run and related disappearance of the probable driver would be investigated by UMass PD. Maybe, but seems unlikely.

Mason
I will try to find that article. If I remember correctly it was an actual newspaper article. However, we have seen several that have errors as well.

Anyone remember that? Something was said about not having the correct storage facilty or something to that effect.

Mason wrote:

BTW, think about this for a minute.
If your daughter was missing and you feared that she was murdered in a residence at a specific location, such as the A-Frame, based on the same set of circumstances that I outlined previously, would you not arrange to have a discreet portion of the blood stain tested by a competent private DNA forensic lab to know whether your daughter's blood was on that carpet?
I sure as hell would.

Hind sight is 20-20. And, absolutely, if I had been able to retain a portion of it to submit. I'd be more than glad to pay for it. I'd be first in line to submit and on the phone screaming for results.

There are those that trust in the system and don't feel the need to do that.....specimens are removed and you're told, by the private investigators, that specimens are to be submitted and tested.

Are you going to stand there and say "hey, can you slice off a portion of that for me to personally have tested?" The PI's are standing there with the carpet.....you say, "Hell 'ya, let's get that tested!"

Once again, Mr. Leatherman, with your many years of esteemed experience, I'm surprised at some of your questions.

{Deep sigh}....I'm removing myself from any further discussions. Do I hear cheers? LOL! This doesn't serve any purpose for me to post. Only thing I derive is frustration.

Wowzer, Quija, Snowy....did I miss any other locals....you guys impress me.

Here's to answers for Maura. If anyone has info to provide, go to MauraMurrayMissing.com . There is contact info on there.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh yeah. Nothing personal, Alden.
I'm calling bullshit. It's VERY personal for you. You've made that ABUNDANTLY clear over time, and have just done so again.

You're deliberately distorting what I said and you know it.

Beagle wrote:

I basically doubt the disturbing phone call was made for the purpose of informing Maura that she was pregnant. It could have been, but the call was late. If it were from a reputable testing source, such as a doctor's office or pregnancy counseling center, they would have probably called her during the day or evening, not at 1:00 AM. And I would guess, but could be totally wrong here, that lab results are usually not given over the phone anyway. Maybe they are.

I deleted the rest of your quote although I agree that the call could have been about Mr. Vasi. I just want to address the quoted matter.

I did not mean to suggest that she was notified about her pregnancy during the call. Assuming she was pregnant, I believe she may have received a call from the father and they had a discussion about the matter and whatever he said about it upset her terribly. In other words, I believe she already knew she was pregnant and she broke the news to him when he called her.

Fred

Snowy White wrote:

Beagle, how about sitting down with Fred Murray? No one else quite matters as much as he does.

It's an idea worth considering, for sure. But at first glance, it strikes me as maybe a bit inappropriate. I could never fathom his sense of loss, and I wouldn't be good at "saying the right thing," whatever that might mean. I'd be in over my head. Fred seems, last I knew, pretty committed to the scenario of an opportunistic abduction on Rt. 112 in Haverhill NH. Frankly, I doubt he would, understandably enough, have too much patience for anything like the ideas I've proposed. I think the best I can do is to press for more WORTHWHILE attention on Amherst.

Lady Gray wrote:

<quoted text>
As the PI's have stated, any and all evidence is turned over to LE.
The PI's would not, separate from LE, arrange for testing of this specimen. Chain of custody. Right?

They already split the carpet in half, sent one-half to LE, and retained the other-half for themselves. Why not test a discreet portion of the stain?

More important, why retain half if not to test it?

Dawn wrote:

Mason
I will try to find that article. If I remember correctly it was an actual newspaper article. However, we have seen several that have errors as well.
Anyone remember that? Something was said about not having the correct storage facilty or something to that effect.

I recall reading something attributed to one of the PI's in which he said that some PI who used to be actively involved in the investigation, but no longer, had possession of the sample.

This statement seemed odd to me until I realized that they must have arranged to have a lab test their sample and when they found out it was menstrual blood (and not from Maura), they no longer regarded their carpet sample as important.

I'll bet they threw away their half of the sample long ago.

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
I deleted the rest of your quote although I agree that the call could have been about Mr. Vasi. I just want to address the quoted matter.
I did not mean to suggest that she was notified about her pregnancy during the call. Assuming she was pregnant, I believe she may have received a call from the father and they had a discussion about the matter and whatever he said about it upset her terribly. In other words, I believe she already knew she was pregnant and she broke the news to him when he called her.
Fred

That sounds plausible enough, but why specifically believe "she knew she was already pregnant and she broke the news to him when he called her?" Why couldn't he have already known about a possible pregnancy and - middle of the night - have called her and then it came out that he wanted, or demanded, an abortion?

I can see that maybe Maura was pregnant and it is connected to her disappearance, but I certainly don't see a pregnancy as definite at all. Maybe yes, maybe no.

I do know there is an unusually keen interest (as in otherwise statistically improbable) in her disappearance by opponents of abortion, but it still doesn't necessarily follow that Maura was pregnant. And even if she was, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the equally competing scenario of a Vasi hit.

But the notion that a pregnancy somehow triggered Maura's disappearance should definitely be given honest consideration.

Okay, I'll try on the idea that Maura was pregnant by a secret lover and that it played a key role in her disappearance. I doubt it's true, but it does hold some promise.

If it were known for sure that she worked at an art gallery, and if that gallery could be honestly identified privately, and if the gallery were a particular gallery, then there is potentially a very good reason for the Saturn to have been left where it was, and maybe a good reason to think a red Ford PU with MA plates now parked on 5 and 10 was connected to events of that night.

But since a mod/family member prefers to describe this as an example of trolling (or maybe as diversionary), rather than get some possibly valuable information about a red PU, this theory, no matter how correct, is useless. It all depends on what gallery Maura may have worked at. If it's the UMass gallery in SW, then the red PU on 5 and 10 is probably irrelevant. In any event, the PU I'm thinking of is not a 3/4 ton or a stake body or anything like that.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
We know you dislike the Murrays...

As applied to Maura Murray's immediate family, this is utterly 110 percent FALSE. I have almost no idea who they are and certainly have no dislike of them or anything even remotely like that.

I do, however, strongly doubt the good intentions of the PI's - to the extent they can even be understood in their correct person-to-poster relationship.

The plural name "Murrays" and the term "family" have been twisted into meaninglessness on this thread.

The closest "family" member I am aware of is someone who identified herself as Helena and she was, according to her own statement, married to a cousin (not sure whether first, second, third, once removed, etc.) of Fred's. She had never met Maura. None of which reflects badly on Helena (if even she exists), but as in all online discussion boards, it's really hard to know for sure who people really are. After my experience with multiples of "Helena," however, I began to doubt a lot of what was posted on the old MMM board.

Following some exchanges with Helena #1, another (if a term like this even has any applicability at all) moderator assumed, without saying so, Helena's identity. So I have communicated with at least two distinct (real life) persons who say they are both Helena, but the entire experience makes one wonder just what is meant when "family" is used in this or any thread. A real, flesh and blood nuclear family? A flesh and blood (including in-laws) extended family? Something like the saying, "Love makes a family?" Hell, even the Mafia is referred to as a family.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
This whole matter is unspeakably sad and bizarre. Surely, tragedy should not be heaped on tragedy, and a priority would be to stay safe, Beagle.

Tragedy should not be heaped on tragedy? Stay safe? What does this mean? Thank you.