Where is MAURA MURRAY

You made no effort to persuade me you're not wearing a black hat.

Suzanne wrote:

<quoted text>
What do you mean by reformulated? Jung as a consequence of his friendship with the quantum physicist Wolfgang Pauli wrote about the connections between the collective unconscious, synchronicity and quantum physics. Curious about this reformulation.

I wonder if the connection between the collective unconscious, synchronicity and quantum physics is at work here for many to grasp? Reformulation in progress?? Just a thought.

They sure can dance good.

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
He makes the statement that there have been others besides Maura that this person(s)(he doesn’t even know if it’s one or more apparently) has done this two but cannot or will not try to include that in the information.

Sorry, did that statement too quickly.

He makes the statement that there have been others besides Maura who have been abducted or killed by this person(s) but he cannot or will not include who else he believes has been a victim of this person(s). If he cannot, then how does he come to this conclusion? If he will not, then his methods can't be scrutinized and are suspect. It retains the feel of magic, not science.

Bill

Beagle wrote:

<quoted text>They're just advertising their services, keeping their name in circulation, hoping it attracts more business.
These PI things are often about enhancing their reputations. They can say, "I found Jane Doe," that's why I charge the most money. "I'm the best."

Abolutely.

I'll have another slice

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
It is actually worse than that in my mind.
Any new scientific method needs to be open to scrutiny for peer review. He makes the statement that there have been others besides Maura that this person(s)(he doesn’t even know if it’s one or more apparently) has done this two but cannot or will not try to include that in the information.
Again, I call bullshit. Someone making a living peddling voodoo disguised as science. If its not bullshit he would open his methods and practices up for peer review.
Bill

Call bullshit all you want. Dr. Godwin was contacted by a friend of his who heard about Brianna and Maura's disappearances those first couple of months. Dr. Godwin provided his findings on a volunteer basis and whether people wish to except this he is in fact and expert.

His findings on the (2) cases were very different by the way. A former F.B.I profiler also confirmed his opinions, especially the ones pertaining to Maura.

Over the years S.T.A.L.K. has been working with the licensed private detectives with the Molly Bish Foundation and they are an entirely different entity.

Weeper himself has come onto this forum and confirmed the findings of these experts and reiterated the person(s) responsible for Maura's disappearance has done it before and will do it again.

How many expert opinions does it take?(3) expert opinions is enough for me!

The volunteer licensed private detectives with the Molly Bish Foundation are working with the NHSP and for this I am grateful.

With all due respect to the goodhearted folks out there Weeper has stated there is little we (the locals of Haverhill & forum members alike) can do except be present for the volunteer physical searches for Maura.

Beagle wrote:

They sure can dance good.

It's gotta be the tango!

Runaway or Missing/Abducted?

We all know enough about Maura to answer these questions to some extent so I won't editorialize (much).

I WAS SHOCKED TO REALIZE THAT IN REGARD TO THE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT MAURA ENJOYED (RUNNING, HIKING, THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, ALCOHOL) I KNOW LITTLE ELSE ABOUT HER INTERESTS!!!!! I think whiston has mentioned this.

Things LE will do --- some of this is for a person who disappears from their home, and some of this refers to children (bringing a favorite item, like a stuffed animal), but we can adjust these questions ourselves for a 21-year-old Maura...

Full criminal and psych history of all family members

Was there a a history of local LE being called to the Murray house?

Study the established pattern of behavior of the missing person.

Had there been a deviance from this pattern lately?

Timeline of last known activities, detailed and verified. Did the person get money, give away possessions, return possessions, etc?

Habits, hobbies, interests, favorite activities?

The person's comfort zone -- did the person head toward a familiar and comforting place?

Does the person have the intellect and maturity to adapt to new circumstances? For a child, changing schools... for an older student.... changing schools?

Travels alone frequently? Or is this unusual?

Takes a favorite item or comfort item with them when they travel?

Recent changes in behavior?(Uncontrollable crying?)

Any unusual events?(Car accident?)

Any new stresors?(Late-night phone call?)

Does this person have a habit of leaving a stressful situation?

Recent changes in eating, sleeping?

A history of alcohol use?

Did the person take daily required meds with her?

Study and evaluate the living space of the person who is missing. What does that tell you?

Did the person leave a note or voicemail for a loved one?

Did the person have resources available --- car, money, a place to go?

Transport, toiletries, meds, items of personal significance?

New or old boyfriend troubles?

Does the missing person have survival skills and the stamina for a long-term absence?

Found some of this on a gov't site and got me to understand why LE might have labelled Maura a runaway...

HPD would not look at the Saturn, abandoned, but with a recent driver now missing, and not notice that it was probably driven by the person to whom the sticker was issued - Maura. Even though the car was REGISTERED to Fred.

Okay, say you're HPD. You call UMass PD with the sticker #. They tell you who the sticker is issued to. They might even know her personally. The car's owner is old enough to be the sticker holder's father. The sticker holder is a CURRENT Umass female student, about 21 years old. This takes about 5 minutes for HPD to put together.

By 8 PM Monday HPD must have known, with help from UMass PD, who was most likely driving the Saturn. HPD would not have ASSUMED that Fred, whose address was, IIRC, in eastern MA, and whose age was 50-60, was driving the student's car, although he certainly could have been. UMass could easily have gone to Maura's dorm room within aa hour of the Saturn's having been found.

But keep in mind that the local police, Amherst and maybe UMass PD, had been all over the Corolla by then.

Late Thursday night, there's a possible case of motor vehicle homicide, operator unknown (left scene). This is a serious crime. Police do not dismiss this kind of case from their minds for at least a few days after it has happened. They are looking for a car that may have hit Vasi. And the guilty operator knows this.

Sunday morning, just off campus in the next town, Hadley, there's an early AM crash, driver distraction, no OUI, car towed to hotel.

Monday, mulitple cops are all over Corolla, registered to Fred, at body shop.

Monday night, Saturn, registered to Fred, found in Haverhill, NH.

The above is not a comment on Fred or Maura. It's a comment on what might have been communicated between HPD and UMass PD.

WTF-the-original wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry, did that statement too quickly.
He makes the statement that there have been others besides Maura who have been abducted or killed by this person(s) but he cannot or will not include who else he believes has been a victim of this person(s). If he cannot, then how does he come to this conclusion? If he will not, then his methods can't be scrutinized and are suspect. It retains the feel of magic, not science.
Bill

Bill, I believe that noone here has the facts or else the case of missing Maura would have been solved, correct? My guess is that this educated person is working with probabilities which seems sensible to me. I know you are always looking at the black and white, but sometimes it may be gray. I sure wish I could answer your post more definitively because I appreciate the way you post with decisiveness and clarity. I just tend to always look beyond and around.

Although things change with each post I read, today I think Maura was angry and ran away. I think she avoided foul play. I think she's alive and I hope she's resolved things and enjoying life in peace.

You're on the wrong side of the street.

Beagle wrote:

HPD would not look at the Saturn, abandoned, but with a recent driver now missing, and not notice that it was probably driven by the person to whom the sticker was issued - Maura. Even though the car was REGISTERED to Fred.
Okay, say you're HPD. You call UMass PD with the sticker #. They tell you who the sticker is issued to. They might even know her personally. The car's owner is old enough to be the sticker holder's father. The sticker holder is a CURRENT Umass female student, about 21 years old. This takes about 5 minutes for HPD to put together.
By 8 PM Monday HPD must have known, with help from UMass PD, who was most likely driving the Saturn. HPD would not have ASSUMED that Fred, whose address was, IIRC, in eastern MA, and whose age was 50-60, was driving the student's car, although he certainly could have been. UMass could easily have gone to Maura's dorm room within aa hour of the Saturn's having been found.
But keep in mind that the local police, Amherst and maybe UMass PD, had been all over the Corolla by then.
Late Thursday night, there's a possible case of motor vehicle homicide, operator unknown (left scene). This is a serious crime. Police do not dismiss this kind of case from their minds for at least a few days after it has happened. They are looking for a car that may have hit Vasi. And the guilty operator knows this.
Sunday morning, just off campus in the next town, Hadley, there's an early AM crash, driver distraction, no OUI, car towed to hotel.
Monday, mulitple cops are all over Corolla, registered to Fred, at body shop.
Monday night, Saturn, registered to Fred, found in Haverhill, NH.
The above is not a comment on Fred or Maura. It's a comment on what might have been communicated between HPD and UMass PD.

Beagle how could this be so when the ORIGINAL call was for missing female?

quija wrote:

Runaway or Missing/Abducted?
We all know enough about Maura to answer these questions to some extent so I won't editorialize (much).
I WAS SHOCKED TO REALIZE THAT IN REGARD TO THE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT MAURA ENJOYED (RUNNING, HIKING, THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, ALCOHOL) I KNOW LITTLE ELSE ABOUT HER INTERESTS!!!!! I think whiston has mentioned this.
Things LE will do --- some of this is for a person who disappears from their home, and some of this refers to children (bringing a favorite item, like a stuffed animal), but we can adjust these questions ourselves for a 21-year-old Maura...
Full criminal and psych history of all family members
Was there a a history of local LE being called to the Murray house?
Study the established pattern of behavior of the missing person.
Had there been a deviance from this pattern lately?
Timeline of last known activities, detailed and verified. Did the person get money, give away possessions, return possessions, etc?
Habits, hobbies, interests, favorite activities?
The person's comfort zone -- did the person head toward a familiar and comforting place?
Does the person have the intellect and maturity to adapt to new circumstances? For a child, changing schools... for an older student.... changing schools?
Travels alone frequently? Or is this unusual?
Takes a favorite item or comfort item with them when they travel?
Recent changes in behavior?(Uncontrollable crying?)
Any unusual events?(Car accident?)
Any new stresors?(Late-night phone call?)
Does this person have a habit of leaving a stressful situation?
Recent changes in eating, sleeping?
A history of alcohol use?
Did the person take daily required meds with her?
Study and evaluate the living space of the person who is missing. What does that tell you?
Did the person leave a note or voicemail for a loved one?
Did the person have resources available --- car, money, a place to go?
Transport, toiletries, meds, items of personal significance?
New or old boyfriend troubles?
Does the missing person have survival skills and the stamina for a long-term absence?
Found some of this on a gov't site and got me to understand why LE might have labelled Maura a runaway...

Very well done and very interesting. We know very little about Maura, the only person who let us know a little about Maura as a person was Sharon, bless her. Firecat tells me it is none of our business, it is an invasion of her privacy, yet FC has never once commented on the discussion of Maura's birth control pills which I thought was a rather private matter.

NH LE has been roundly, soundly and repeatedly condemned for suggesting that Maura was a runaway. I have always seen it as a real possibility. Adding to your above list is the fact that Maura refused to allow SBD to call for help.

quija wrote:

Although things change with each post I read, today I think Maura was angry and ran away. I think she avoided foul play. I think she's alive and I hope she's resolved things and enjoying life in peace.

This i suppose might fit in with our above discussion of synchronicity. I too vacillate but today I feel fairly certain that Maura is alive, that she ran away from a threat and that, pray God, she is currently somewhere safe and at least somewhat content.

quija wrote:

Although things change with each post I read, today I think Maura was angry and ran away. I think she avoided foul play. I think she's alive and I hope she's resolved things and enjoying life in peace.

Like a glove

Suzanne wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes i know you are safe. You mentioned Brockton. And I'm guessing at the type of music that you play, I believe it to be the type that I am woefully ignorant of.(that was no doubt one of those pesky grammatical errors we are always hearing about). Just wondering if you knew a guitarist/performer named Ben Fitzgerald.

I have heard of him altough I am not terribly farmiliar with him. I'm a bluesman through and through, the music the Europe and England loved when it was considered "race music" here in the states.....then when the Beatles and the Stones all the teens went mad for music that had been played and not accepted here strictly because of the colour of the musicians skin.

I have often wondered what family life must have been like people who continually ponder the runaway theory after five years of no activity on Maura's credit cards, bank accounts, and social security number.

Even after Maura's own family stated they believed Maura was deceased and at this point hers is a recovery effort.

Unlike some folks on this forum I am not go to delve into other's personal lives re: formative years or pass judgement with my limited education in psychology.

I was fortunate to have grown up in a very stable and loving environment and I see many similarities in Maura's family life with my own.

What is being described re: the runaway theory is a truly selfish act and a young woman who has never caused her family a moments worry and calls her dad when she says she will would not put her family through living hell for five years nonetheless.

And I'm accused of not having a firm grasp on reality?

I have tried in the past to verify to my satisfaction that Dr Godwin had anything of substance to offer and didn’t find anything of consequence. This time I did find some articles he has written and some reviews of things he has done. I will not read his books because anyone can publish a book and unless it is peer reviewed it has little use as a research tool. On the surface it appears that he has done some things of interest. His theories seem to be based upon other works that are readily available. His claims or claims others seem to make about him are interesting because sometimes he claims that certain things cannot be gotten from the data that he uses and then proceeds to take some credit for information that he claims cannot be gotten from the data so I am still not convinced as to what he actually provides or how different it is from what others do, if it is.

You may want to take what he says on blind faith and that is ok with me. I prefer to see the data and what he claims can be learned from it. If what he says is true then serial murderers and arsonists and rapists all subconsciously have patterns that they are not aware they are making. Maybe they do and maybe they don’t. I have looked at one of his peer reviewed journals that he coauthored a paper on.

I understand much of what is in his paper and I am actually going to review what he says. I understand his approach and the theory and math behind it. I will respond later with what I find. If I can’t fully understand what he is saying I will be happy to say that. If I find it to be unsubstantiated I will be happy to say that also. If people try to invest more confidence in what he is saying than is justified by his research or data I will say that also. When people don’t actually understand what someone is saying they sometimes invest hopes that are unjustified into the theory even when the person himself doesn’t make those claims. I will also try to find other peer reviewed publications that he may have contributed to.

One thing is already clear. What is very disturbing is that he needs data to feed the program/theory he has written. So, the data that he has used to make this determination is still not available. This again, is my biggest concern. He claims others have been involved in committing some crime in the area based upon data that he is using with items that we don’t know if they are linked in any way, shape or form. That is a very large hole in the conclusion to start with. What I know already I’ll mention (simplified). He used information on past serial killers sites where they both dumped and killed their victims. He has built a mathematical statistical model on these past crimes and uses them to model where a killer (rapist, arsonist) likely lives(ed). The more crimes tied to that person the claim is the more accuracy because of the perps behavior.

Problems – We don’t know if Maura was killed. We don’t know if Brianna was killed. We don’t know where Maura’s body was dumped (if she is dead). We also don’t know where Brianna’s body was dumped (if she is dead). We also don’t know what other people he might be using to include in his data to make the assertion, that there is a serial killer or killers. Other problems are that any people he has included in the data that are claimed to be associated with this serial killer(s) are unknown to us. Since there is no useful data, based upon his own criterion, for Maura or Brianna how does he come to these conclusions? This product he produced seems to be driven ass backwards, by his own published criterion, but I will give it my attention and try to let you know what I believe when it’s finished. Those that are happy go with the flow usually are happy because it fulfills preconceived notions so rocking the boat is counterproductive. I am an itinerant boat rocker. In the end it produces nothing but the best product that is capable

Bill