Where is MAURA MURRAY

Dawn wrote:

Snowy,
I would imagine Pansie writing style is very differnt from mine. We all know that Beagle is always spot on. We know several posters have commented they had look up some of the words he used. I do think some of his poster's are contraversial - However, I don't think anyone can disagree he is obviosly very intelligent and very well educated. He also does not come across as snooty because he is well educated or from New England

actually, the content between your posts was not dissimilar...given Pansie's posts originated from Seattle...you identified yourself as Dawn, also from Seattle...and they appeared in the same timeframe, during the month of December.

perhaps you haven't recognized that the presence of multiple monikers can be distracting and deceptive, and suggest the author is unwilling to accept responsibility for his/her statements made under a static identity.
instead, such a person creates chaos while hiding away from authenticity.

we've become so complacent as to be amused, when it's not amusing...to ignore...and, now, to accept such behavior and communications as 'normal' on this forum. it is not.

Dawn, you, in fact, have focused on and have made statements about serial killers, nationwide, and the prevalence of crime in NH.

you have offered that you own property in WA near the Canadian border....and that you apparently would feel 'safe' enough to welcome strangers onto your property to search...and feed them, as well..perhaps as a gesture of welcoming, friendship, and assistance.
and yet, you dwell on the presence of random criminality and serial killing.
this is counter-intuitive, to my thinking.
to my thinking, it is also unwise to so quickly make contact with strangers on a forum.

you, very specifically, questioned whether i feel 'safe', and i offered reasons for my feeling appropriately 'safe'in my community; and i shall reiterate that Maura's disappearance does not and should not make me feel less safe.
others seem to feel differently, even at locations that are geographically distant from NH.

your further interpretation of the information i've offered is subject to your interpretation...for you to take or leave. be advised, however, that my freedoms are as relevant as yours.

Dawn wrote:

Snowy,
To top it off I also understand he comes from elite lineage from Cape Cod.

Dawn, honey, you've earned this one.
STFU

rinse, and repeat.

Snowy White wrote:

seems the accusations are true, as i consider the sources...even though i wasn't present.
it's interesting to me that there is no defense or denial...and worse, no apology.

finally, a compassionate response to WW...ducks all in a line.
glad to have helped. ;-)

White Wash wrote:

Lots of paperwork involved in that I hear!
Joking is way past due around here!
<quoted text>

Ha....that's exactly the kind of joke I would make....

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
Dawn, honey, you've earned this one.
STFU

Ok, I have no idea what Dawn's post was about, so I have no idea what your response was in reference to (or to what it was in reference)(or whatever) and I'm not taking sides on the issue, because I DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T CARE, but I have to say......that this made me laugh really hard.

And now, back to my regularly scheduled posting.

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
Ok, I have no idea what Dawn's post was about, so I have no idea what your response was in reference to (or to what it was in reference)(or whatever) and I'm not taking sides on the issue, because I DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T CARE, but I have to say......that this made me laugh really hard.
And now, back to my regularly scheduled posting.

while Suzanne has little tolerance for bullying and bull$hit; my patience has exceeded more tolerance for dysfunction and deception.

find Maura? where? between the layers of dysfunction and deception?
good luck.

FC...glad to offer up a smile.

now, i'll add ten !!!!!!!!!! for emphasis.

toodles.

Snowy White wrote:

<quoted text>
Dawn, honey, you've earned this one.
STFU

And Snowy wins the grand prize for being brave enough to say what more than likely several others here are thinking. Bravo!!!!!

culture sure went out the window - don't throw out the baby too.

I am curious if anyone found the connection that beagle was talking about - except UMASS

paris ??

Wowzer wrote:

<quoted text>
And Snowy wins the grand prize for being brave enough to say what more than likely several others here are thinking. Bravo!!!!!

Right back at both of you. A little shocked you would need to brave to send something anonomously over a forum. Maybe therapy would help. toodles

hi all,if we could mention Maura Murray here from time to time and the 2 facts we have that would be a good thing.Maura vanished and a car that was registered to her father was found in N.H.I cannot tell who is peeing in the well or why anyone would want to. I am open to civil suggestions.take care philip

Dawn wrote:

I am curious if anyone found the connection that beagle was talking about - except UMASS
paris ??

Been in meetings all morning, no time. I'm interested though to check it out, just wish I had a clear idea why....
Thanks Ben for all the info, wont use the Mac anyhow. Did find a few things already, thanks to you.
White Wash, I lost my father too, he died in my arms. I never recall any of this from the old forum......went over my head.

whiston - i am still very curious about the paychecks and w2. we KNOW the IRS would not just let that go............ surprised someone here hasn't gone on campus and asked.. trying not to speculate here.. I have seen some posts about umass not wanting beagle to go there.. maybe he knows....... as he says what are we doing. if i lived close i would go ask. there can't be too many galleries

I think it has to be very important to the case or it would have been answered.. There has to be one student who knew and has the answer and wasn't close to her. a customer would certainly remember after seeing it on the news.

another thought.. if I bought art from her I would check her out on google to see if there were updates... that 'someone' has probably lurked on this site too........ or even posted

quija wrote:

No sign of foul play.
75% chance of a conviction.(Of WHAT, if there was no foul play!)
Girl disappears near a state border and FBI don't insist of getting involved?
What does all LE know?
Major Crimes Unit? Brought it for political and nominal reasons?
We believe she is deceased, but there are no signs of foul play.
What the heck?
It's sounds like they're sure she is deceased, but took her own life (maybe a REAL goodbye note was found in her room and the first one there took it away?)
Then who is it that LE has a 75% chance of prosecuting? A person who hounded her and forced her to leave? A person who verbally abused her not long before her disappearance for something she did? Can a person be arrested for "driving" someone to feel so bad they decide to take their own life? Did someone see a person with NH plates run her off the road?
I'd really like to know the whereabouts of Maura's friends, but mostly family, from Sunday night through Tuesday late afternoon. And, of course, on Friday midnight to 12:40AM.
Even if local LE had evidence that convinced them Maura was suicidal, wouldn't the FBI want to look at this case from the start, not start with a conclusion? Why haven't they? Do they agree with the HPD's initial conclusion? Did a UMass Administrator or Official or Security person get to her dorm room first and remove a goodbye note and give it to the FBI?
Why have searches focused right around the snowbank scene if it's thought a perp picked her up in a car and took her away? Why are a lot of posters convinced Maura never left Woodsville?
Except for the possibility of a suicide note that solves the "what", all that's needed for that scenario is the "where" of finding of Maura's remains. The FBI wouldn't be needed for that if they believed she took her own life, would they?
And would the FBI be needed if state and local NH LE have a really good idea who took her and this person was unlikely to have, or known not to have, left the NH?
The FBI wouldn't listen to circumstantial evidence that Maura "was suicidal" from a town PD unless they independently verified it, right? That's their job!
Just rambling because nothing makes sense, STILL!

When I first read about the State of NH's claim that they had a "75% chance of a conviction," I recognized it as 100% bullshit. The statement was pure spin for the following reasons.
1. Lawyers are trained to identify legal issues raised in fact patterns.
2. Whether a particular fact pattern raises a legal issue depends on whether the fact pattern implicates a legal rule.
3. Any fact pattern that describes the circumstances of an arrest implicates legal rules that (a) define an arrest and (b) define what is required to justify an arrest.
4. The Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution and United States Supreme Court cases interpreting it have defined an arrest as any situation involving a contact between a police officer and a citizen that the police officer initiated in which a reasonable person in the same situation as the citizen would not believe he was free to terminate the contact and leave the scene. A police officer can arrest a suspect if she has probable cause to believe the suspect committed a felony. Probable cause is defined as having reasonable grounds, based on the officer's knowledge of the facts and circumstances, to believe that it's more probable than not that the suspect has committed a particular felony offense.

CONTINUED

PART 2

5. Therefore, when a lawyer reviews a fact pattern describing the circumstances of an encounter between a police officer and a suspect, he focuses on who initiated the contact, whether a reasonable person in the suspect's situation would have believed he was free to leave, and whether the facts known to the arresting officer were sufficient to support a reasonable belief that it was more probable than not that the person arrested committed a particular felony offense.

6. What constitutes a felony offense? All crimes, whether federal or state, are defined by statute, and each statute sets forth the elements (i.e., what the prosecution must prove) that must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Murder is a felony.

7. What are the elements of a murder charge?
a. A voluntary act committed by a person;
b. with intent to kill another person;
c. that causes death.

8. What evidence will be sufficient to satisfy the probable cause requirement for an arrest? There must be sufficient facts and circumstances that would support a reasonable belief that it's more probable than not that Maura Murray is dead and a particular suspect committed a voluntary act with intent to kill her and that act caused her death.

9. What must the prosecution do to convict a suspect? It must overcome the presumption of innocence by proving each element of the offense charged beyond a reasonable doubt.

10. Does it make any sense to arrest someone, assuming you have probable cause, if you don't think you can prove each element of a murder charge beyond a reasonable doubt? Depends on whether the arrest may lead to discovering other incriminating evidence as might be the case if the person arrested voluntarily waives his right to remain silent and confesses to the crime or gives a statement denying knowledge and responsibility for the offense but the statement can be proven false.

11. Can the State of NH convict someone of murdering Maura Murray? Not unless it can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Maura is dead and a particular person committed a voluntary act with intent to kill and that act caused her death.
Evidence that she's dead is circumstantial and the poll we conducted on the other site produced a split result with slightly more than 50% of the voters concluding that the prosecution cannot prove the death element beyond a reasonable doubt.
Proving death in a murder prosecution is the legal equivalent of getting to first base. We are likely aware of all of the evidence the Major Crimes Unit of the NHSP has to prove death. I'm reasonably certain they have collected lots of evidence we do not know concerning potential suspects. However, the major proof problem since 7:45 pm EST on February 9, 2004, is and always has been a lack of sufficient evidence to prove the death element.

CONTINUED

PART 3 (FINAL)

Therefore, the truth is that, regardless of the evidence collected against a suspect or suspects, the prosecution is stymied unless
(a) Maura's remains are recovered, and
(b) the Medical Examiner and probably a forensic anthropologist examine her remains and conclude to a reasonable medical and anthropological certainty that her death was a homicide (i.e., caused by an unlawful act and not a suicide).
If my analysis is correct, and I'm confident that it is, what's up with the 75% comment?
Like I said, it's bullshit, or spin, if you prefer. The statement was made in the context of Fred Murray's lawsuit and the person who made the statement knew that his legal justification for refusing to disclose information was much stronger if he characterized the case as an ongoing criminal investigation instead of a missing person investigation. I don't think he was prepared to answer questions regarding the probability of indicting someone and how soon that might happen.
He was quick and smart enough on his feet to avoid saying 50% because he knew the probable cause standard to arrest and charge someone requires a reasonable belief that it's more probable than not that a crime has been committed and the person arrested or charged is responsible. He managed to avoid ensnaring himself in the thorny thicket that a 50% answer would have placed him.
What's midway between 50% and 100%? Doesn't 75% indicate we're sort of certain we have a homicide, but we aren't sure yet. We're working on it and we have reason to be optimistic that we're making progress, but we don't really know for sure.
If the answer had been 90%, people would have raised their expectations that an indictment would be forthcoming soon and they might have accused him of lying when it didn't.
75% was low enough to avoid raising expectations yet high enough to satisfy the Supreme Court that there was a sufficient basis to treat the case as an ongoing criminal investigation rather than a missing person case.
The answer was perfect, even though off the cuff and technically meaningless.
Accept it for what it was -- a dodge to avoid being pinned down and keep your current options available.

Fred

Is it POSSIBLE that Maura did have a previous acc. in the woodsville area on Feb. 9th 2004. Is it also POSSIBLE that a person came along with a truck, maybe even a RED ONE and this person stopped to help her. Maybe this person in the truck offered her a tow to his garage or house Possibly on Rte. 116, Benton Rd. Maybe this person offered to help her fix her car and she took him up on the offer.

While being towed by chain or tow strap when the vehicles reached the sharp turn at The Weathered Barn the 2 vehicles became detatched from each other or collided with each other. This would mean Maura's Saturn rearending or going under the back of the truck.

SO....Is it POSSIBLE that the Thud that was heard could have been the collision between the 2 vehicles and the Acceleration could have been the truck taking off from the scene. The person realized he would be in trouble for removing the Saturn from the 1st. acc. scene, towing the vehicle for more than 1 mile with a chain or strap. He might also think if Maura had been drinking this would add more problems for him.

Is it also POSSIBLE that this truck could have been the same truck that was parked on BH Rd. on this same night.

Remember the RED TRUCK that slowed to check out RO and was at the store when she arrived there. RO stated this truck also left the parking lot shortly after (a few min.) she entered the store and headed easterly towards the Weathered Barn. Maybe this truck encountered Maura and her saturn between the store and the Weathered Barn, broken down or crashed. So he offers her the help and she accepts.

So this would leave Maura at The Weathered Barn scene with a disabled vehicle. She gathers her things and walks away from the scene and is Possibly picked up at the corner of BH Rd. and Rte. 112 (where the dogs tracked her scent to).

Where did she go and with whom?

hi Dawn i could come up with plenty of places that would know which mystery gallery Maura worked at,including the IRS and student employment office at umass Amherst.The bigger question as was asked by Mason on the other forum is why is it so important to keep it from the public.I cannot get my brain around that reasoning and yet still say Maura took out 280 dollars and used birth conrol pills,sent emails ,called her teachers etc.As WW asked how did Maura get the Salamones number and as i said only Maura knows if she called them for a place to stay, they dont' remember the call from Maura.take care philip