Where is MAURA MURRAY

snowy the public has no right to answers, unless it places the public in harms way. My questions are usually non rhetorical, but not always.

There is every indication that Maura met with foul play; at this point this is not at issue, but everyone is free to believe that which they do.

The public has the right to ask questions and the right to safety. I do think that if Maura met with foul play the public have the right to know, if they have reason to fear for their own safety and to ask for justice, at least this is my expectation of law enforcement. Giving out evidence is not what law enforcement is contracted to do.

Hopefully police are asking the same questions and investigating to find out answers.

2-Part Post

In item 6 of my previous post, I mentioned the Cottage Hospital employee and said,

"If the scent dog was following Maura's scent, she likely got into an E/B vehicle on Rte 112 before the Bradley Hill Road intersection. The only person I know about who was driving in that direction and may have arrived at the right time and place to stop and offer Maura a ride that she likely would have accepted is the Cottage Hospital employee, assuming the employee was a woman."

Weeper told us that a police vehicle with emergency lights on passed the hospital employee on Goose Lane as both were headed in the direction of Swiftwater. We've since learned that Sgt Smith was driving that police vehicle and he was responding to FW's 911 call at 7:27 pm. We also know that he was dispatched at 7:29 pm and arrived at scene of the accident at 7:46 pm. Therefore, we know he arrived 17 minutes after he was dispatched.

Weeper also told us that Sgt Smith turned the wrong way when he reached Rte 112 and had to turn around to correct his mistake.

Weeper told us that as the hospital employee approached the Goose Lane intersection with Rte 112, the employee saw the same police vehicle pass by on Rte 112 heading E/B toward the scene of the accident. We can reasonably infer that Smith's detour couldn't have taken much time which, I think, eliminates the theory that he was initially responding to a previous accident. At any rate, the employee turned right on Rte 112 and headed E/B in the same direction as Sgt Smith, but at a significantly slower speed, obviously.

Weeper told us that when the hospital employee arrived at the scene of the accident, the employee saw Smith's vehicle parked nose to nose with the Saturn, but Smith was nowhere to be seen.
Goose Lane intersects Rte 112 at the Stage Stop convenience store, which is a little over a mile from the scene of the accident.

What conclusions can we draw, if these facts are true?

1. Smith arrived at the scene of the accident at 7:46 pm, after correcting his wrong turn on Rte 112, probably at 7:44 pm.

2. Smith probably realized he was headed in the wrong direction when dispatch contacted him with more information about the accident location after the Atwood's 911 call at 7:43 pm.

3. This scenario fits perfectly with his 7:46 arrival at the accident scene.

4. When he didn't see anyone in or next to the Saturn and found the doors locked, he walked over to the Westman residence to talk to the 911 caller and get more information. Then he walked up to the Atwood residence and talked to the SBD.

5. The hospital employee arrived at the scene while Smith was talking to the Westmans, passed both vehicles, and continued E/B on Rte 112 past the Bradley Hill Road intersection and further down Rte 112 toward the employee's residence.

Okay so far, right?

Wrong, or possibly wrong because I see a potential problem with the timing.

Part 2 FINAL

Could the hospital employee have been driving so slowly on Goose Lane that he or she reached the Rte 112 intersection after Sgt Smith reached it?

Recall that Sgt Smith passed the employee sometime after 7:29 pm when Sgt Smith was dispatched to investigate FW's 911 call. Smith obviously reached Rte 112 well ahead of the employee distance-wise, but not necessarily time-wise. Depending on the speed at which it's traveling, a vehicle can cover a lot of distance in a short period of time.

In any event, Sgt Smith realized he turned the wrong way on Rte 112 and I suspect he may have realized his mistake because of the Atwood's 7:43 pm 911 call. He turned around and headed E/B toward the Goose Lane intersection. Doesn't it make more sense to believe that the hospital employee reached Rte 112 before Sgt Smith, instead of after?

If my suspicion is correct, the hospital employee would have passed the scene of the accident just before Sgt Smith arrived and would have been in the right place at the right time to see Maura walking toward the Bradley Hill Road intersection along the side of the road about 100 yards beyond the Saturn.

Many people have noted that it would have been far more likely for a good samaritan, rather than a serial killer or someone with bad intentions, to have stopped and offered Maura a ride. Many people also have stated that she would more likely have accepted a ride from a woman. If the hospital employee were a woman and if she were wearing scrubs, wouldn't Maura have been more likely to accept a ride from such a person compared to any other?

Why might the hospital employee have concealed his or her arrival at the accident scene ahead of Smith?

Assuming the hospital employee was a good samaritan, she may have assisted Maura in any number of ways for any length of time and, if Maura wanted to start over somewhere else, this person may have assisted her and covered for her. She might have been willing to lie and say she was behind, instead of in front of Sgt Smith to protect Maura's desire for privacy.

I believe it's possible, but less likely that the hospital employee might have picked up Maura, if she arrived at the scene of the accident after Sgt Smith.

We have no persuasive evidence that Maura had committed a crime. She would not have violated any law by running away and the good samaritan would not have violated any law by assisting her to run away.

Why is the hospital employee's name and gender unknown?

Fred

Don't want to disappoint anyone, but every once in awhile, the simplest and most obvious explanation is the truth.

Fred

7:29 + 3 =7:33

"Arrived on scene 3 mins after the FW call"

Mason wrote:

Don't want to disappoint anyone, but every once in awhile, the simplest and most obvious explanation is the truth.
Fred

Occams razor. Good rule of thumb.

Bill

peripeteia wrote:

snowy the public has no right to answers, unless it places the public in harms way. My questions are usually non rhetorical, but not always.
There is every indication that Maura met with foul play; at this point this is not at issue, but everyone is free to believe that which they do.
The public has the right to ask questions and the right to safety. I do think that if Maura met with foul play the public have the right to know, if they have reason to fear for their own safety and to ask for justice, at least this is my expectation of law enforcement. Giving out evidence is not what law enforcement is contracted to do.
Hopefully police are asking the same questions and investigating to find out answers.

thank you for your reply, peri...
at some level, i want to maintain an abiding trust in LE, and imagine they have done and are continuing to do what they reasonably can to find the answer to Maura's disappearance; and then, i realize it is quite possible that personalities and/or their incompetencies are preventing full disclosure, and that the quality of investigating may have poor and contributory to having no answers.
railing at them, in general, won't help...perhaps the cold case squad and/or grand jury will...or at least provide more attention to her disappearance.
everytime someone says "i wish we knew...." such and such...it comes across to me as more than an appeal...rather, a demand for information that LE either does not have, or they are unwilling to share (for the right reasons).
all in all, i believe it is unfair to place blame anywhere or with anyone, given the reason(s) for her departure and the circumstances of her disappearance remain unknown.

peripeteia wrote:

snowy the public has no right to answers, unless it places the public in harms way. My questions are usually non rhetorical, but not always.
There is every indication that Maura met with foul play; at this point this is not at issue, but everyone is free to believe that which they do.
The public has the right to ask questions and the right to safety. I do think that if Maura met with foul play the public have the right to know, if they have reason to fear for their own safety and to ask for justice, at least this is my expectation of law enforcement. Giving out evidence is not what law enforcement is contracted to do.
Hopefully police are asking the same questions and investigating to find out answers.

Peri,

I disagree with your statement,

"There is every indication that Maura met with foul play; at this point this is not at issue, but everyone is free to believe that which they do."

I don't believe there is any persuasive evidence of foul play and, as far as I can tell, law enforcement agrees with me.

The foul play theory is only a possibility at this point and so it will remain unless her remains are found AND suicide is ruled out.

In my opinion, foul play is the least likely scenario. Suicide is far more likely and starting a new life is far and away the most likely scenario.

mcsmom wrote:

7:29 + 3 =7:33
"Arrived on scene 3 mins after the FW call"

But he got there at 7:46, which is 3 minutes after the 7:43 Atwood call.call

Absent evidence that someone murdered Maura, the only conclusion anyone can draw regarding her disappearance is that she disappeared for as yet unknown reasons.

Even if her remains are found, unless persuasive evidence is discovered processing the scene or during the autopsy that rules out suicide, the most likely cause of death will be officially reported as suicide.

The foul play theory is based 100% on speculation.

Maura's disappearance illustrates more powerfully and clearly why it's necessary to know the alleged victim's state of mind before attempting to formulate a theory. No one can reach any evidence-based conclusions without that information.

This is why I've been trying to find out her state of mind, but no information has been provided that allows me to draw any evidence-based conclusions.

People who label those who seek such information as vile human beings attempting to victimize the victim and her family could not possibly be more clueless. Instead, they obstruct legitimate and necessary efforts to discover the truth.

I think their effort is well intentioned but tragically misguided, ignorant, and stupid.

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>

I don't believe there is any persuasive evidence of foul play and, as far as I can tell, law enforcement agrees with me.
The foul play theory is only a possibility at this point and so it will remain unless her remains are found AND suicide is ruled out.
In my opinion, foul play is the least likely scenario. Suicide is far more likely and starting a new life is far and away the most likely scenario.

I completely agree.

Mason
I think it would helpful if you did it time by time for us slower folks

727 - x
729-x

so we can visually see the difference..:-)

Mason wrote:

Maura's disappearance illustrates more powerfully and clearly why it's necessary to know the alleged victim's state of mind before attempting to formulate a theory. No one can reach any evidence-based conclusions without that information.
This is why I've been trying to find out her state of mind, but no information has been provided that allows me to draw any evidence-based conclusions.
People who label those who seek such information as vile human beings attempting to victimize the victim and her family could not possibly be more clueless. Instead, they obstruct legitimate and necessary efforts to discover the truth.
I think their effort is well intentioned but tragically misguided, ignorant, and stupid.

Again I agree. I think some pretty unhappy things started happening in Maura's life with her being asked to leave WP. I am sure Fred was thrilled to have TWO daughters at WP (who wouldn't be?). He no longer had this. I wonder if he unconsciously conveyed his disappointment to Maura. Or maybe he just plain made it clear to her that he was profoundly disappointed in her. No matter how many people go yadda yadda about Fred no one here knows the complex psychodynamics of the Murray family. I know I have no clue what went on in the Murray family.

More and more I wonder if some of the locals helped her in her journey. I know this is hard to accept - I have had a hard time with it. However, this would explain a few things - they know more than we do. Just a thought

Mason wrote:

.
People who label those who seek such information as vile human beings attempting to victimize the victim and her family could not possibly be more clueless. Instead, they obstruct legitimate and necessary efforts to discover the truth.
I think their effort is well intentioned but tragically misguided, ignorant, and stupid.

This is a description of the aim, goal and purpose of FIT whose mantra was keep yourself focused on the accident scene and all answers to this mystery will be revealed.

Mason wrote:

<quoted text>
Peri,
I disagree with your statement,
"There is every indication that Maura met with foul play; at this point this is not at issue, but everyone is free to believe that which they do."
I don't believe there is any persuasive evidence of foul play and, as far as I can tell, law enforcement agrees with me.
The foul play theory is only a possibility at this point and so it will remain unless her remains are found AND suicide is ruled out.
In my opinion, foul play is the least likely scenario. Suicide is far more likely and starting a new life is far and away the most likely scenario.

thanks for sharing your opinion Mason, and wished I shared your views in this matter.

White Wash wrote:

Sorry meant to say one cup!
One soda bottle was retrieved from under the
car when the flatbed removed it.
<quoted text>

...which is, of course, very significant because it has been established in the police report that the soda bottle was NOT there before Maura's car got there.

thinking out loud

timeline of red truck as per calculated by RO original statement to the press that a suspicious person driving a red truck passed her on the 112 highway and headed towards the accident scene about 10 minutes before the police came by, assumedly this is Smith. Likely a 2 minute drive by Smith to reach accident scene, where he is reported to have arrived at 1946, presuming he is driving fast as he had already lost time by heading westward on the 112 before the stage stop store.

This takes the time police passed at 1944.

seeing red truck driver, 10 minutes before gives time at 1934, plus 2 minutes or three to arrive at accident site,likely driving slower, brings time to 1936-1937.

If we take the time of FW call at 1927, she states 5 minutes later SBD came alone 1932

Stayed five minutes, likely shorter 1937.

If the red truck headed down the 112 he likely had to pass the accident scene and this likely happened at 1937, which would be after the SBD left. About the approximate time he was backing his bus up the driveway.

The red truck driver could have done any number of things in the remaining 8-9 minutes to abduct Maura and avoid detection by the police when they arrived at 1946.

If there is a second witness that places the red truck on Bradley Hill road at the time of Maura's disappearance, it is more than coincidential.

It is important for the police to determine who else might have seen this truck?

The timing, place and circumstance of the red truck sightings is worthy of investigation.

The female/male at the accident scene was last seen at 1944-1945.

Agreed that it seems far fetched that Maura was in the wrong place by some misfortune, and that a killer just happenstances to see her drive by, or happenstances to come upon her crippled car. Whatever the scenario involved it seems that the red truck driver had opportunity and as strange as the possibilties are, when evil has a hand in things anything, can happen anywhere. Evil is not confinded to one place, class, type of person, or sanity level of an individual/s. It strikes most times by opportunity, as the desire to avoid detection is increased if the victims are random, oftentimes the evil is premediated.

No matter what happened to Maura the red truck driver either had to be involved, or the driver of the truck might have witnessed something of value in the investigation. Given that the person has not come forward, we can assume the worst regarding what type of person he is, or he saw something he has reason to fear. No matter, the police need to find this person. There is indication of police stopping many trucks this night and next day, and the report of the red truck as seen by RO was not immediately made known to police.

Therefore did someone report seeing a red truck in the area besides RO?

Did the SBD see the red truck?

Did the hospital worker see the red truck?

What time did the dog walker witness the red truck?

Did the neighbours see the red truck?

Monaghan spoke to RO on her way home, this was likely about 45 to an hour after she arrived at the store, she witnessed the other emergency vehicles headed to the cash site.

quija wrote:

I guess I'm posting this knowing it's controversial, but also because it's the first time I thought of it.
*The super-strong assertions on MMM that the note found in Maura's dorm room was actually email(s) TO Billy SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE PROTESTING TOO MUCH. That correction, repeated endlessly, makes me wonder why? Why it's such a hot issue. Yes, we want to preserve our loved ones' memories. But half the people in this country (a wild guess which needs to be checked out) ARE ON THE NEW ANTI-DEPRESSANTS! Depression happens. It is not a character flaw. And sometimes people resist taking the meds (because the side effect can be unpleasant, or because they are independent and self-sufficient), give up after trying a few different ones, or can't find one that works. Remember that her boss suggested counseling. It didn't have to be a life-long or permanent depression, but it sure sounds like she felt that way in the days before she disappeared...

...and, of course, NONE of the people who are cheerfully gievn Rx for antidepression meds are misdiagnosed for the sake of selling meds. Furthermore, if that statistic were correct, it means that 1 out of every 2 people in the US are on antidepressants. In my household, 4 out of 4 are not on antidepressants. Hm.