Where is MAURA MURRAY

whiston wrote:

hi all, i am reposting this because it went into deep space.The cottage hospital witness saw sgtSmiths vehicle at the saturn 15 to 20 minutes before F.W called 911.This would have been around 7.12 p.m.Was this just bad record keeping or is the witness just wrong about the time.Take care philip

Indeed another timeline mystery.....and btw your original post reappeared from wherever it had been on its little deep space odyssey!:)

Dawn wrote:

Oh bummer.. I thought you had posted once it started in Tukwillaloo ??? Darn..... I was hoping to meet you.

Yes, the Seattle marathon in June starts in Tukwila. But I'm not running it. I can't afford to fly out there.

Don't worry, you're not hallucinating. This time.

Hi all.I should have said KATE MARKOPOULOS, NOT AMY ran at the race in Rhode Island on Feb 07 2004 and afterwards joined Maura and mr Murray at the Amherst brewing company for dinner.As for Maura being a star athlete before she vanished,I think she had not run a race for almost 2 years for umass.Someone please help me with this Maura went to umass Amherst on a scholarship.Whether because of her past athletic performance or grades i don't know.I know she had been pursued by other schools for her prior athletic abilities.Was she being asked to leave for not performing in either venue.What would cause you to be asked to leave Amherst.take care philip

hi Dawn you forgot to mention research Beagle has done about the Sinclairs.take care philip

peripeteia wrote:

<quoted text>
copied from internet:
Meanwhile, women's hamstring muscles (on the back of the thigh) respond more slowly than in men to injury. The hamstring muscles normally protect the tibia from sliding too far forward. Women's sluggish hamstring response may allow the tibia to slip forward, straining the ACL. Other studies suggest that women's ACLs may be weakend by the effects of the female hormone estrogen. Taken together, these factors may explain why female athletes have a higher risk of ACL tears.
another article:
Strengthening of the hamstrings is often recommended following injury and reconstruction of the anterior cruciate ligament. It has been suggested that hamstrings activity stabilizes the knee and reduces anterior cruciate ligament load during weight-bearing flexion; however, the effects of hamstrings cocontraction on the kinematics and mechanics of the normal knee have not been assessed at physiological load levels. The aim of this study was to determine whether the addition of hamstrings force affects knee rotations, translations, and joint and quadriceps force during flexion with loads at physiological levels applied to the muscles and joints.
Comments:
Injury of Hamstring muscles affect, ligaments, and soft tissues, in the area of the injury and
usually affect the knee.
Our Queen of soft tissue injury has given us the forms of treatment for such and injury. Ice, heat, ultasound, expercises, passive range of motion, etc., and running would be a no no, also water exercises, and a passive range of motion exerciser machine (one used when knee is operated on) would help rehabilitate the muscles, and ligaments and avoid further weight bearing injury.
p.s. there is oodles of information available on the net regarding such injuries

What are water exercises, please? Thank you.

Dawn wrote:

Beagle
What is up???? You have been so quiet. I hope you are OK. Happy Friday... Good Friday.:-)

Thanks. Happy Saturday.

whiston wrote:

What would cause you to be asked to leave Amherst.take care philip

Being a registered Republican.

Dawn wrote:

Beagle
I have a question for you. You have done ALOT of research and investigatin on behalf of both the Murray Bish cases. Definately more than most!!!! I would say even more than anyone else here on the forum. Not to mention your other research you do on how the companies are linked from MA to NH.
My question is :
Did you know Maura or ever see her around ? Since you live in the area.. maybe you did.. I don't know. This has probably been answered already.. my apologies if it has.
I'm just curious.. I think you might have actually known her.

No, I never knew Maura Murray - in any way, shape, or form.

Dawn wrote:

<quoted text>
Try one more time before I am off for the weekend.
Beagle??? throw me a bone

"Eugenics was an international movement that attracted heads of state, teachers, philanthropists, journalists, and ordinary citizens who advocated laws and policies that would shape the most basic decisions that individuals and societies make: Who may marry? Who may have children? Who will be educated? Who may live among us?"

**********

Above from "Race and Membership in American History: The Eugenics Movement." (p. x)

Published by Facing History and Ourselves National Foundation, Inc. and the Harvard Facing History Project. Copyright 2002.

Below from "Race and Membership in American History: The Eugenics Movement."

**********

"Virginia officials, acting under a eugenics law that served as a model for the rest of the nation, tried to purify the white race from 1924 to 1979 by targeting virtually any human shortcoming they believed was a hereditary disease that could be stamped out by surgical sterilization. Such maladies included mental illness, mental retardation, epilepsy, criminal behavior, alcoholism, and immorality.

In 1941.[Raymond W.] Hudlow was a frightened 16-year old who became caught up in Virginia's eugenics frenzy that led to the forced sterilization of about 7500 people.

His crime: repeatedly running away from home to avoid beatings by his father.

"Every time my father beat me I ran away. He beat me half to death," Hudlow said in a recent interview at his mobile home near Lynchburg.

When his father told the "welfare lady" "he couldn't control me," Hudlow's reproductive fate was sealed.

"I was picked up by the sheriff at home. He handcuffed me" to the Virginia Colony for Epileptics and Feebleminded near Lynchburg, where most of Virginia's sterilizations were performed.

On June 17, 1942, Amherst County Circuit Judge Edward Meeks granted the colony's request to sterilize Hudlow, identified in the court order as an "inmate" of the colony.

Hudlow, now 75, remembers the day the colony eugenicists came for him.

“They just came and got me before I woke up one morning. They wheeled me and throwed up on the operating table. They put straps around my waist and chest, spread my legs and put my feet in stirrups.

“There was a nurse holding my arms above my head so I wouldn’t move.

“When they grabbed my testicles, they pinched them up. They took a needle and stuck it into my testicles.” Hudlow believes the was anesthesia.

“They didn’t wait for it to work. They made an incision. They went right on in there. I was hollering and crying. I was hurting.”

None of the colony medical staff explained what they were doing to him. Hudlow said,“The only way I found out, an employee on Ward 7 told me I wouldn’t be able to father any children.

“They treated us just like hogs, like we had no feelings.”

**********

Hudlow went on to serve 21 years in the Army and Air Force. He was a radioman at Omaha Beach two months after the Allied invasion of Europe.“ He saw combat in France, Belgium, and Holland, where he was wounded in the left knee and captured by the Germans.”

Beagle wrote:

Below from "Race and Membership in American History: The Eugenics Movement."

**********

"Virginia officials, acting under a eugenics law that served as a model for the rest of the nation, tried to purify the white race from 1924 to 1979 by targeting virtually any human shortcoming they believed was a hereditary disease that could be stamped out by surgical sterilization. Such maladies included mental illness, mental retardation, epilepsy, criminal behavior, alcoholism, and immorality.

In 1941.[Raymond W.] Hudlow was a frightened 16-year old who became caught up in Virginia's eugenics frenzy that led to the forced sterilization of about 7500 people.

His crime: repeatedly running away from home to avoid beatings by his father.

"Every time my father beat me I ran away. He beat me half to death," Hudlow said in a recent interview at his mobile home near Lynchburg.

When his father told the "welfare lady" "he couldn't control me," Hudlow's reproductive fate was sealed.

"I was picked up by the sheriff at home. He handcuffed me" to the Virginia Colony for Epileptics and Feebleminded near Lynchburg, where most of Virginia's sterilizations were performed.

On June 17, 1942, Amherst County Circuit Judge Edward Meeks granted the colony's request to sterilize Hudlow, identified in the court order as an "inmate" of the colony.

Hudlow, now 75, remembers the day the colony eugenicists came for him.

“They just came and got me before I woke up one morning. They wheeled me and throwed up on the operating table. They put straps around my waist and chest, spread my legs and put my feet in stirrups.

“There was a nurse holding my arms above my head so I wouldn’t move.

“When they grabbed my testicles, they pinched them up. They took a needle and stuck it into my testicles.” Hudlow believes the was anesthesia.

“They didn’t wait for it to work. They made an incision. They went right on in there. I was hollering and crying. I was hurting.”

None of the colony medical staff explained what they were doing to him. Hudlow said,“The only way I found out, an employee on Ward 7 told me I wouldn’t be able to father any children.

“They treated us just like hogs, like we had no feelings.”

**********

Hudlow went on to serve 21 years in the Army and Air Force. He was a radioman at Omaha Beach two months after the Allied invasion of Europe.“ He saw combat in France, Belgium, and Holland, where he was wounded in the left knee and captured by the Germans.”

Sorry, I forgot. Who is Karma?

Beagle wrote:

<quoted text>What are water exercises, please? Thank you.

Water exercises are, quite simply, exercises done in a swimming pool. Including, but not limited to, swimming, "water running" (which is like running, done in the upright position with the aid of a flotation vest--some crazy/serious runners even do it in their running clothes, including their shoes, but usually it's done in a swimsuit) and other no-impact exercises.

YMMV, see your physical therapist or orthopod for details. Offer good while supplies last.

whiston wrote:

Hi all.I should have said KATE MARKOPOULOS, NOT AMY ran at the race in Rhode Island on Feb 07 2004 and afterwards joined Maura and mr Murray at the Amherst brewing company for dinner.As for Maura being a star athlete before she vanished,I think she had not run a race for almost 2 years for umass.Someone please help me with this Maura went to umass Amherst on a scholarship.Whether because of her past athletic performance or grades i don't know.I know she had been pursued by other schools for her prior athletic abilities.Was she being asked to leave for not performing in either venue.What would cause you to be asked to leave Amherst.take care philip

Whiston: Where is your information that indicates Maura was asked to leave U of Mass.
You are the source of the information that Maura was asked to leave West Point. You are the ONLY person to make this PUBLIC. Your information is perhaps valid, and understand that how you came about this information is traceable, therefore you would be remiss to identify your source, as West Point employees are bound to secrecy, and in order to work there you need military clearance. Or you obtained the information from someone bound to secrecy at U. of Mass, the detective and/or employee. Lets face it Maura was not likely to tell, she kept secrets.

Now you are indicating Maura was asked to leave
U of Mass, others here have NO SUCH INFORMATION, since you are the LONE AUTHOR OF THIS RUMOUR, perhaps you should explain. What did Maura do in the two weeks she was at Amherst after the break, to have her expelled from Amherst?

If she was asked to leave why did she email her professors and state she was taking a week off due to a personal nature, which in order to get time off, she was obliged to lie.

I am surprized that your interest in what was going on in Amherst does not extend to developing a timeline, or who was the last person to see Maura. Which might be more productive than spewing RUMOURS.

Unless you are willing to explain your source, then I think readers can place this in the file of URBAN LEGENDS!

She won an acedemic scholarship, not an athletic merit. This has been stated many times, and verified by family members and you know this to be so as you commented before on the MMM forum, and your question was answered.

Presumably, since Kate M met Maura on the track we can presume she was running sometime during her 2 years at U of Mass, whether offical or not, does it matter?

FireCat wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh dear.

FC
I meant my comment as a compliment, and loved the name so I thought it was a touch of humour, I am impressed by both your and scooter's knowledge of muscle and ligament/soft tissue injuries and the treatments, sorry if this seemed sarcastic, my comment was not meant to be so, not in the slighest.

quija wrote:

IMO Maura having to curtail her running was a big deal to her --- It's depressing, demoralizing, it's yet another loss, it's one less way to burn off steam or stress, and a person might find themselves vulnerable to having to begin DEALING WITH SOME OF THE DEEPER PROBLEMS they've been avoiding. I really think this was yet one more part of the progression to a crisis.
IMO there were things discussed in the (20 min? long) phone call from Maura to her dad on Sunday night around 11PM. She then begin to look for a place to go. Was Fred working Monday? Was Fred working Tuesday?
We've heard all the "reasons" it took Maura until around 4PM to get ready to leave on Monday afternoon, getting near dusk. It's also around the time her dad who might have been on a hospital schedule (7AM-3PM?) would have had time to get off work and drive an hour or more to Amherst from Bridgeport, CT. Was Fred going up there, accompanying Maura in a borrowed red truck, for example? Or one he bought used? LE has to know this. I don't believe that is a mystery to them, just to us.
If Maura had nothing to do with Vasi, did Fred tell Maura Sunday night that he was coming up to complete car-hunting stuff? Did she leave before he got there, wanting to flee for some reason? Could her dad have gone to her dorm to find her, gained access to her dorm room and found her searches for directions north and followed her? Did he find "a note" left in the room? IMO it's more likely that happened Tuesday because that's when he began trying to reach Cecil Smith with "important information", that his daughter was depressed and, thus, endangered, etc.
There is a huge piece of what happened that is missing to us (as there should be). If Maura hit Vasi and someone helped her flee, that would be a crime. Covering up an accidental death or a crime of passion would, of course, be too. There's also obstruction of justice or lying to LE... There are too many secrets.

Q
I agree with you insight that not being able to run likely caused Maura some grief. It is a known fact that physical injuries athletes suffer cause them psychological grief and anxiety. Also, this leaves a person feeling demoralized and somewhat depressed.

Your other points, well:

Was Maura involved in Vasi's accident, no she was seen at the security desk. Did someone borrow her car, and involved in accident, PERHAPS.

Fred's alibi has been checked out, and he was never interogated as a suspect, I took the courage and asked someone IN THE KNOW as I could not understand for the life of me, how some people on the forums believed Fred was involved in Maura's accident.

Red Truck ownership by Fred, this might be URBAN LEGEND?

What Maura and Fred discussed in their phone call at 11 p.m., have no idea except Fred said, he spoke to Maura about accident papers, and Maura agreed to pick these up the next day and that she would call him Monday night.

We have no confirmation of exact time Maura left Amherst, it is believed to be around 3:30, however, no one has verified this information, and Brian McGowan, likely is too occupied with the closure of the Boston Globe to answer inquries regarding his source of information and time verification of Maura's last sighting.

well, Peri, if you wish to discount all possibilities to defend Maura against the unknown features of her life prior to her disappearance, it's not going to fly with Whiston. never has.
i once thought his questions were unkind and prying, only to realize that while the answers may or may not be critical...they are definitely clues.
this, of course, includes West Point, transfer/timing, and team status. perhaps you know more than you should, and you're not sharing.

Obvisously JM was home odd he didn't come out since the accident was on his property!
Even odder that he didn't call 911 to report and accident on his property!

Not sure where you are from but feel free to check with some 911 or look up
policies.

Gee Whiz even On Star stays on the line
with their clients until help arrives
so why wouldn't Grafton County Dispatch?

peripeteia wrote:

<quoted text>
White Wash:
JM was then obviously home? You have written in your summation, that FW states he was not! This is rather misleading information, when we know in detail what JM stated to Weeper? We know that he choose to remain incognito, as he was referred to as the SILENT WITNESS.
One would hope that law enforcement has interviewed JM, you imply that JM has spoken to
no one else, surely you do not include the police as having not spoken to him, that sees rather odd at best and an incomplete investigation not to take a testimony from JM and his wife VM. There were earlier statements in the press besides the Hanson Express articles, where it referred to a witness, if it was not JM then it was VM who spoke to the media.
i.e. back up the saturn and parked parallel to the road, the SBD backed his bus all the way up his driveway for the first time, SBD remained on his bus a very long time before he went into his house. This information could have only come from the "M" household, and it was confirmed by Weeper.
Question: was FW on the phone for 19 minutes?
Or did Sgt. M arrive before the time notated in the Sherriff's Log, and Accident Report issued by him?
Very important question! The answer makes all the difference in the world, as the present timeline that we have developed, is inaccurate. This information needs to be clarified, because if we go by what FW said, Sgt. S arrived at the scene of the accident before he said he did, because it defies logic and acceptable practices that FW was on the phone with RM for 19 minutes, also, according to the logs RM was talking to others during this timeframe. There would be not reason for a 911 operator to keep a person on the line for that length of time considering a car was simply off the road, and the SBD had already arrived.
FW also sees to have changed a number of her statements as well, re: as pointed out in your summation of her remarks, and clarification is necessary, i.e. man smoking a cigarette, now becomes a red dot?! and others pointed out in my post in response to your summation.

ScooterD wrote:

<quoted text>
Bill - could you please cite the source of this quote? I'm not questioning you, only want to read the whole thing. Thanks.

Bill checked out information re: 1996 Saturns and posted it on the other Maura forum, and you are correct the mechanism available now which shuts off an engine automatically was not available in
1996 Saturns, apologize for my error in information, this applies to new models.

What the Saturn did have was a Electronic Data Recorder EDR/Vetronix Corporation, California
The following list is of 1996 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Riviera
Buick Skylark
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Express
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
Oldsmobile Achie
Oldsmobile Aurora
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand AM
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturn models

what an EDR keeps in "Black Box"

speed preeceeding prior to and at time of crash
RPM's
if a car skid
if a car was TOWED
throddle position
seat belt engaged or not engaged
braking, if and when applied
time of airbag deployment
ignition cycle
diagnotic trouble codes
whether the car moved after the accident (backed up as indicated by JM)

*air bags in Saturns have known to deploy with being involved in an accident, i.e floor pan stricking an object, such as snowbank, bumpy roads, and simply for no reason deploying, and known also not to deploy in an accident.

Change topic: QUESTION: How were the keys removed from the ignition if the car was in neutral? Is it possible to place the car in NEUTRAL without the keys? Did someone jimmy the
ignition to extract the keys?

Change topic: The EDR will answer a number of questions as to whether there was a previous accident before the one at the Weatherbarn,
and perhaps if the car accident at the weatherbarn was stagged.

Presumably a law enforcement reconstructionist has examined the data from the EDR, and compared this information with the physical data from the accident scene at the weatherbarn.

*My personal opinion is that the information from the EDR should be made available to a private autoreconstructionist for a second opinion, this is often done, a second autopsy, other forensic labs etc. in criminal cases where evidence findings are in dispute. The information from the EDR would answer many questions and rule out the varying testimonies of the witnesses, which differ greatly, and the EDR information would be indisputable determining if there were two accidents and if the airbags deployed at the accident at the Weatherbarn.

p.s. I know you have questioned the car in neutral position, here and previously on the MMM forum? Do we have an answer how the Saturn keys were extracted/or the car placed in neutral with no keys?

What th

Just a wild guess but I have a photograph of a Maura look alike
that was checked out so I dare
say the other sightings have been
looked into again since you don't have
the information doesn't mean it hasn't
happened.

Eurobserver wrote:

<quoted text>
Benjamin Franklyne,
You are absolutely right there regarding the implications of the possible sighting of Maura by gvmeabrk.
Just consider this:
How on earth would it be at all possible for anyone, LE, PI´s, whatever, to state with any certainty that this girl was NOT Maura.
Granted, it may not have been Maura, but to emphatically purport that this could NOT have been Maura would be a most baffling conclusion to arrive at a long time after the observation was originally made by gvmeabrk.
The same obviously goes for the possible sighting of Maura in the Barton, VT, church on Fathers Day in 2005.
I simply refuse to believe that the mysterious "Raykel" can be unequivocally said NOT to have been Maura.
Checking this out weeks or even months after the possible sighting is simply beyond the capability of even the equivalents of Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot.
IMHO.

Bill
Sorry correction to above post:

Did someone jimmy the ignition after the keys were removed to place the gear in neutral after the keys were removed?

Was the ignition sytems broken? Thus allowing the keys to be removed from starter when the gear was in neutral?